Neelam Patel shares her journey from tech professional to poet, performer, and author, highlighting how saying yes before you’re ready can unlock creativity, courage, and growth.
Check Out These Highlights:
Neelam describes the pivotal moment in 2003 when she stepped onto an open mic stage for the first time, terrified yet exhilarated, and discovered her creative home. She shares how blind faith led her to produce a one-woman show at the Capital Fringe Festival, despite having little theater experience, and how that leap brought unexpected opportunities and press coverage. Together, Neelam and Toby explore the “messy middle,” the importance of a beginner’s mindset, and why imperfect action often leads to the most meaningful growth. Neelam also talks about her book Burning It Down, Dancing in the Rubble, and how accountability, community, and persistence helped her finally bring it to life after years of dreaming.
About Neelam Patel:
Neelam Patel is a poet, performer, and author of Burning It Down, Dancing in the Rubble. She helps audiences embrace creativity, courage, and authenticity by sharing her journey from tech professional to artist, showing how saying yes before you’re ready can transform your path.
Connect with Neelam:
🌐 Website: https://www.tailoredpoetry.com/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dancewithneelam/
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About Me: https://tobymyles.com/about/
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Toby Myles: Hey Neelam, welcome to the podcast.
Neelam Patel: Thank you. So lovely to be here, Toby.
Toby Myles: Yes. I'm really excited for this conversation As these things go, you and I were chatting a little bit before we hit record and I was like, okay, we gotta stop 'cause this is all such good conversation and I wanted to make sure we captured it.
And the first time we hopped on a call, that was also an amazing conversation and I almost wish we had like. Recorded that too, because so many good things popped up. So I usually start by, um, sharing how we know each other and we were introduced, um, by Brianne Hennessy who has been on the podcast, who's just a lovely human being.
And I always say that amazing women know other amazing women. And I always ask, ask my guests to introduce me to other women that they know. And so that's. How we're here. And I think like two minutes into our last conversation I was like, oh yeah, you're gonna be on the podcast.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. It's such a gift to meet you, so I'm glad that you said yes so that we can continue our conversation.
Toby Myles: Yes.
Neelam Patel: Yeah,
Toby Myles: yeah, for sure. So, um, I would love for you to, um, take us back to a point in time or maybe it's like several moments or things going on in your life that you feel really like put you on the path that you're on right now.
Neelam Patel: I would say, I mean, for a long time I balanced both the corporate career and the creative life and the time when the creative life came into my life would be the point where I think it just kind of grew.
And that was 2003. I was in a tech job and. Didn't love it. So hired a career coach to be like, how do we get this career moving? And she said, try something outside of your career. She said, you, you seem to need to, uh, speak in public, which I think she was dropping into her intuition because we had taken all these tests, these uh.
Corporate, like, you know, matching tests of where your personality fits roles and that never had come up. So it felt like it was out of the blue, but I followed it. So maybe her intuition hit and mine did. I saw an open mic poetry at a Barnes and Noble and signed up, and at first I'm like, I've never done a poem.
I don't know what this is, but something in me pulled me in and. The night before, I didn't tell anyone, so it was a secret. I didn't tell any of my friends and I wrote something on a notebook paper and like ripped it out with those spiral notebooks and got up there and like. They called my name and I was like shaking.
And I remember I would like, I would do a little, uh, like a little announcement before I did my poems and I would say, I don't know if this is a poem or a journal entry. Thank you for bearing with me. And then I would just read my poem. Mm-hmm. And then I sat down that first time, and I still remember this, and I've shared this story in other places because even now when I share it feels true, is I sat down and I had two feelings at the same time.
One was, I'm never doing that again. One was I found my home and there was something about being there that felt so good. And I think we talked a little bit about it. Like that's where like, I think the idea of, you know, what is like the real present, the full present moment of like, um. Both things being alive, it's never, you've never completely healed.
It's always kind of like a yes. Otherwise we're hiding something of ourselves. Mm-hmm. So I would say that was a major, major pivot point. And then things just blossomed out of that. I started, I produced a one woman show 'cause I saw a poet do something interesting with music and I thought, oh, I could do that.
And then I told everyone who had an ear. That I'm gonna do a one-woman show. No idea. I'd taken two theater classes and uh, at 1.1 of the ears that it had landed on was someone from the Arlington Public TV studio where a bunch of us poets had done a program with them. And I stayed in touch with him and he said, Neelam, have you heard of the Fringe Festival?
You said you wanted to do a show and there's someone I would like you to meet. She's doing her own show. So I met with her and suddenly I'd applied and. I applied, I did a one woman show 2006 for the Capital Fringe Festival that was in Washington DC. Mm-hmm. It was their first fringe and uh, and it was insane.
'cause afterwards I learned that people are like, oh, they wait until later in their acting career to. Do a show where they play multiple character. Well, I just played myself and I hired a director and, and then someone else wanted to be a my director. And so I was like, well, I already hired a director, which was someone from my acting class.
And she said, well, do you need a dramaturg? And I said, yes. I hired her and then I googled, what is a dramaturg? It was very much, it made the whole, and then she knew someone who became my PR agent, so it was like this. Thing that I created, and it was, it was really an act of blind faith. If I knew any information about theater or about shows, there's a good chance I wouldn't have produced it.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Some of my dance friends from India were visiting and they have their own dance company and, um, I went to see them and I was like, I'm doing a show. And I, and, and the woman I was talking to was the dance company's lighting designer, and she's like, oh, so what are you gonna do with the tech?
Whatever. I honestly, this is embarrassing now, but at the time I'm like, oh, I'll just flip the lights on. No idea about stage lighting. Mm-hmm. No idea. I had seen maybe one theater show since before I decided to do this. And then, um, she, like, she sat me down and lectured me. And then by then I hired a lighting guy and our, our review, um, the Washington Post came to that first show.
Wow. Viewed my show.
Toby Myles: Oh my gosh.
Neelam Patel: And yeah. And then another, another theater. Um. Publication came and because Fringe Festival does that, they'll list everything. Yeah. Press has a chance to go to whatever they feel like going.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Neelam Patel: And I'm lucky. Anyway, the lighting guy was mentioned in one of the reviews, so it was really cool.
It was really, yeah. Oh my gosh. I think the look are two big moments.
Toby Myles: Yeah. I love that because like. You know, as entrepreneurs, I think that we tend to feel like everything has to be perfect before we put it out into the world. And the sad part about that is that it's not ever gonna be perfect. And when you have that mindset that has to be perfect, lots of times you never even launch, you never even put the thing out into the world because you're so busy overthinking everything.
Like, oh my God, this little thing and that little thing, and you just like went for it. You just were like following, you know, what felt like. What you should be doing and saying yes to things before you had it all figured out. And I think that is such a good, um, lesson for everybody listening, that whatever it is you're thinking about, starting, like sometimes just say yes to it and figure it out.
Right.
Neelam Patel: And I think, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that, 'cause exactly what you said at the end, say yes and figure it. 'cause the, the information comes after you take the action. Yes. Once I announce, and of course some people have a different way of doing things and, and they, they are successful in like, keeping everything a secret until they do it and
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: For me, I have very little knowledge of the things I'm doing, so. The more I say it candidly, the more information I receive. Mm-hmm. And the more people I hire, then they give me information about other things.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: So it's like there it is an impossible thing to try to create it over here at the starting line.
Toby Myles: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that feedback that you get in anything that you're trying for the first time is just going, it's just information for the next time and the next time and the next time. Right. Like. You can read all the books and all the articles and you can watch all the people online doing the things, but until you actually go through the process and take that action, um, I'll say messy action because I know we had this conversation before about like the messy middle, which to me, and I think to you is actually just like our whole lives are just this messy middle, right?
Neelam Patel: Yeah. Thank goodness. And one, one reframe as you're saying that, that reminded me was. That same career coach I had, um, after she came to my show. And, um, and it was such a compliment that she came and she talked to me after, and later in, in our final appointment, she said, Neelam, think of this as your grad school.
So maybe that's a way to sort of flip the framing of I'm doing something new, like mm-hmm. Like everything is learning, everything is, everything is rehearsal, you know?
Toby Myles: Yes.
Neelam Patel: If you think of it as, oh, I'm starting a business, this is my business school.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: The edge off. And it makes it joyful.
Toby Myles: Yes, it makes it joyful.
And I think too that, um, just, you know, I've heard other people use this term before, but this beginner's mindset, like, remember that? The things that you are good at now, you weren't always good at. Right. At some point in their past it was all new. And, um, even like getting on Zoom, you know, before we were all so comfortable with Zoom and at some point it was like, oh, this is weird, this is different.
Right. Um, we on Sunday. My kids were all over. And my grandson, I bought him a, um, two wheel bike for Christmas and it's got training wheels on it, but he had been, you know, he had mastered the tricycle. He was great at that. But, um, but the regular two wheel bike, even with the training wheels, he's still trying to figure out the mechanics of how to pedal forward and then you pedal backwards to stop and he was getting very frustrated 'cause he wasn't good at it.
And so he just kept hopping off and he would just push the bike. Down the sidewalk. And, um, my daughter-in-law said, yeah, he, he's a perfectionist. He doesn't like to do things that he's not good at, you know, and I thought, like, so many adults are the same way, right? Like, we, we are, our default is like, eh, this, like, this is embarrassing.
This is, I'm gonna look like an amateur, whatever. And I just feel like, gosh, if we could just let go of that, imagine like all the amazing things we could create and put out into the world.
Neelam Patel: And that reminds me like. The thing that I feel like when I'm on the right path is when I have some life force around it, like a little energy and excitement.
Mm-hmm. Then you, otherwise it's like, oh, this is, this is getting a little bit boring. I know how to do it. I could do it in my sleep.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: But the difference between like doing something that's exciting and the boring thing is a boring thing I can do in my sleep.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: Exciting thing I don't know how to do yet.
Yeah. So we could fall down until we can do that in our sleep and then that becomes boring and then
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: So to get off that, like to make life more exciting, you know? Yeah. To get enthusiasm back in Yeah. It that requires that beginner's mindset as you Yeah. And it is scary. I'm not saying I'm immune to it, you know?
Toby Myles: Sure. Yeah.
Neelam Patel: And yeah, you have to feel safe enough to make mistakes. You, the, yeah. Support system matters every, like your emotional safety matters too.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I, but I think it's so relatable too. I think it's what draws people to you, and I'm saying like to you specifically, is that willingness to just show up and have it be imperfect.
But you're still showing up with all your gifts, right? The gifts that you bring to the world. So before we go too far. In the conversation because I know, like we've, we've spoken before and I know we just kind of like follow the breadcrumbs, which I love and we're going to do. But I wanna um, kind of go back to that point where you, um, you worked in tech, right?
Which is really like almost the opposite of the creative side of things. And so how did you, um, did you feel anything like. Where you felt like, oh, I'm like a tech girl, I shouldn't be doing something creative. Or what are people, you know, in my career gonna think of this? Like, you know, creative side of me?
Was there any, um, sort of inner kind of like struggle around that?
Neelam Patel: Oh, well, no one's ever asked me the flip side like this before. I would say that. I had more of a struggle with my own inner identity, like
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: I had, I had put, you know, a real quote unquote real job on the altar, like on a pedestal. I mean, and so that felt like hard for me.
And, but to your point, the reason why I think I kept, I kept getting promoted the more I did my art. Mm-hmm. And that I think. Showed me that people found that interesting in the workplace. So it was the opposite. So they knew I was going to open mics, they were getting invited to my one.
Toby Myles: Okay.
Neelam Patel: And I remember once I was like, oh, maybe I blended the two worlds a little too much because I had a coworker who, you know, is not that into art, isn't that?
But he was on my team. So he came and he's like, yeah, Neelam. Some of it was like awkward. 'cause I'm sharing things about my life. Oh well. You bought the ticket and you came Yes, do now. But, um, yeah. I, I, what it, what it ended up doing was customers trusted me more in tech. My, um, any interview I had for like a career, a different job in the organization generally.
Wait, so you do what? And then we talk about that almost.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: So there was this sense of, um, being the kind of, I don't know. The creative one that made it more interesting. Yeah. A belief I think to a lot of people that, you know, I wasn't climbing the corporate ladder. Yeah. And so I think that made it interesting and um.
I, I, it's an interesting place too. I didn't love having that role of being the one that, you know, everyone's like, oh, thank God we have somewhat different, you know, like, I'd rather be around my artist people. Right. But it did serve a purpose. So, um, there was a time when my coworkers did say, oh, you shouldn't be doing that.
Like, it doesn't look good. Guys won't like, like they were giving me advice like that from the internet. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, you know, sometimes you just have to choose whose opinion you're gonna take. But I have to tell you, I was young then, and it did sting me, like, oh, am I doing something wrong? You know?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: So I did have moments of that for sure.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so interesting to me because I have been, I always say I, I was born an artist. Um, it's just who I am. It is who I have always been, and I've kind of, um. Been more active as an artist at different times in my life and less active.
Mm-hmm. During other times. And I would say like the times when I was less active, I was more prone to depression, um, secluding myself, um, just, um, and, and yeah. And. It would take me a while to realize like, okay, like I have not sat down and like made anything or created anything. And there's like this void there, um, to the point where even people that are in my life now.
We'll say like, when was the last time you made something? When was the last time you painted? When was, you know, you need to go in your studio and make something. So people around me start to notice like, okay, like you're, things are like outta whack and things are out of alignment and you gotta get back in.
Which I actually appreciate, you know, because I realize like, yeah, you're right. Like that's. It is who I am at, at my core, right? Um, and so I could see that, but I could also see, I think people like, who are not, who don't consider themselves creative, which I think everybody is. They just don't, haven't found their thing the way that they are creative.
But I do think that no matter what, people tend to be more attracted to those people who are just more creative and colorful and, um. I, I don't wanna use the word free because I don't think that that's it, but I just maybe like more, um, thinking of things in a different way without the constraints of like, it always has to be like, you know, within this box.
Um Right. And so that was why I was just curious of like what it was like while you were still in tech.
Neelam Patel: I think that's interesting. Yeah. I think there's a sense of like, oh, this person is refreshing. 'cause they're not staying within the lines. Yeah. And maybe it makes them, maybe the word free is for them and maybe it makes them feel more free.
'cause it's not our freedom I don't think I agree with you. I don't think. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Toby Myles: um, were you, when you were, um, growing up, were you. Um, an artist, a creator, I mean, were you always, was that always part of who you were?
Neelam Patel: I think so, but it wasn't really looked at as something serious. Mm-hmm. So it was just, for example, I would be jumping around in my bedroom dancing.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, it was not considered. A good thing in the house to be making that much noise, you're gonna break the house. Yeah. Later as an adult, I realized, you know that. Yeah. That's what we all dancers. They're like, yeah, I was. Always moving my body and yeah. Dancing in the kitchen. I was like, me too.
Dancing in the kitchen. And that's 'cause the floor is not carpet in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I would say, but I'd never identified as I'm an artist like that would've never occurred to me.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Until college, I think, where I took a lit class and I was so in, I felt like. My whole organism was alive when I was
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Class, 19th century British romantic literature.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Class. And then I was like, whoa, something in me is alive. You know? Yeah. Something changed and, and then I would go back and say, oh yeah. You know, I think I've always been making things up in my head, making up songs and things.
Toby Myles: Yeah,
Neelam Patel: yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah. So, okay, so you mentioned.
Class, and I was gonna get to this eventually, but this feels like the perfect times to talk about your book. Um, burning it down. Can you talk about, um, just when did you know you were gonna write a book? Because I, I just feel like. So many people say like, yeah, I have a book in me, and you know, and then it never happens.
Um, I am at risk of being that person, but this is the year I am writing my book. In fact, I said it out loud this morning to my husband, um, I'm work, I'm working on a keynote, but I'm like, no, I really need to like do the book and then the keynote. Right. So, but you've done both and we'll get to the keynote in a minute, but talk to me about the book, the idea for the book, um, and when you knew like, yeah, I, I need to write this book.
Neelam Patel: After I did my first one-woman show, the same one that I talked about earlier, there was a woman in the audience who said to me. You said your poem and then you moved on to your next poem and I wish I could sit with it longer. Mm. That's when the idea hit my head.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. That,
Neelam Patel: oh, what if I had a, a thing that people could read and my friend was like, you mean like a book?
And I was like, oh yeah. Like,
Toby Myles: yeah, that,
Neelam Patel: and then I had this image of. The book in my head ever since then, and that was 2006, I published in 2021. So in 2006 the idea was, oh, it's gonna be black and white. There's gonna be these simple images. And I had like all pictured in my head, mm-hmm. The ironic thing, I don't know if it's ironic, you'll tell me the word, but is then Ru Carr, who's that?
A poet who's pretty famous now. Her PO book was like that Black and white with mm-hmm. All of that. And then it, it, it's got a fire in me. Like, no, I was gonna write a book, you know? Yeah. And so, um, then I had a manager in my tech job. Who I, um, bonded with. And one morning we had both meditated, we talked about meditation and we both had meditated that morning.
We both were in the office at a stupid early hour. Mm-hmm. And I was like, what are you doing here? He is like, what are you doing here? We started talking about. That because I was like, oh, I woke up and I was thinking about Rupe and she had written this book and I was like, I didn't mean to get into a deep conversation at six 30 in the morning.
And then he went to the other room, got back and got a login for an app he had created about, um. Keeping people on track for their projects. So he's, well, if you were to put all your poems, 'cause by then I had so many poems, I started writing them in 2003. Mm-hmm. Mike, he's like, and that's why I just had put them somewhere and kind of clean them up.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: And he's like, how long would it take you? I said, well, it would be, and then we had like broken it down, which is not something I normally do is like, think about this in terms of numbers. Timelines. And he's like, okay, well by Memorial Day you should have your book done. And I was like, oh. So I had an accountability person every morning.
I was like, he's like, he's like, how much are you gonna work on every morning? I was like, eight to 10 minutes. He's like, okay. 'cause it, that's how long it takes to take one poem, move it over, maybe two. Yeah. And so I did it and then I had a manuscript and then I left my career and I put on Facebook, Hey everyone, I left my career.
I don't know what I'm doing now. So I left without, I was privileged enough to leave without a plan. And someone said, oh, I did the same thing. Gimme a call. I called her. Mm-hmm. And we had this 45 minute conversation about like living in what we call the messy middle or just the realities of life and all of it.
And then at the end, right before we hung up, she's like, oh wait, why don't you talk to Eric Koster who works at this organization that publishes books? 'cause that's who I'm working on with my book. I was like,
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Oh, okay, I'll call him. And that was it. I called him. And I took my manuscript and by the end of it I had doubled the amount of poems is what was in my manuscript.
Toby Myles: Wow.
Neelam Patel: Editors. And I was like, I guess this is the time.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. And so
Neelam Patel: a community of people through that book program to get that book out. And to your point, people don't write a book because it's hard and
Toby Myles: Yes. And
Neelam Patel: you have that thing in you that's like, I have a book in me and it has to come out.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Forcing yourself to, I mean, that was, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life is get
Toby Myles: that. Yeah.
Neelam Patel: Yeah,
Toby Myles: yeah, for sure. I, you, I, I would say a hundred percent. Everybody I know who's written a book has said the same thing, and the ones that are successful with it are the ones that treat it like.
Um, like a priority, right? Like you said, every morning, you know, eight to 10 minutes, right? Um, you were gathering things that you had already written, but for people who are writing raw material, it's that, you know, the first hour of the day, don't make it the last thing that you're gonna be like, oh no, I gotta do this or that, and then it's not gonna happen.
It has to be a priority every single day.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And if you think of life like a chess board, which I got from um, this mentor of mine in time management, it's like you can move your pawns around, but what's really gonna make an impact in your life. Yeah. And so. Think about that every week, every month and next thing you know, a year goes by and you haven't moved the one that you really wanted.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: And it's hard. There's reasons for it. Sure. It's very hard.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. When I started my podcast last year, I was working with a coach, um, and she was really so instrumental in. Helping me to see how this podcast was gonna eventually get outta my brain and out into the world. And, um, she helped me hire a team, which is really just one person.
Um, she's my, she's my everything. She's my va, she's my podcast editor. She does digital stuff for me. But, um. But this coach helped me to see that some things had to be moved off my plate so that I could focus on my bigger projects, the things that only I can do that come outta my brain. And also that to prioriti, prioritize that first part of the day.
You know, before you get into anything else, your own work, your own projects, that are the things that you need to put out into the world. Have to. Be the priority. It can't just be, oh yeah, I'm just gonna write a book this year. Like, that's not how a book gets written. Right. So, um, so yeah, it sounds like, um, for you that was very much the case.
Like it, like you said, if it was easy, everybody would do it. Everybody would.
Neelam Patel: Yeah.
Toby Myles: You know, instead of saying, I have a book in me, they would actually like write the book.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. And you know, when you said that, it reminds me, it feels like a bigger, something bigger than me that I have to go and fill, you know?
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah.
Neelam Patel: It might be spiritual, it might be something like that where it's like, no, I need to do this, and we don't know what it's for yet, but I need to do it.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like that's so key. I think it's so, I love that you said that. I don't know what it's for yet, because that was very much the case with my pod, with this actual podcast had been.
Something I've been thinking about, about for a couple years and had talked myself out of it. You know, who needs another podcast? I don't know if anyone's interested. And, um, the same coach that I was working with last year said, but just start recording these conversations with women. Like that's what you really wanna do is like get inside and find out how they got to where they are.
It sat, satisfies a curiosity and just do that one thing. Talk to the women, record the conversations, and if it ends up being a podcast, great. And if not, you're still satisfying that that urge and that curiosity that you have around this. Like, how did you get to where you are? Right? And for me, that's a very natural thing.
I'm so, so interested and curious. Or sometimes I joke and say I'm just nosy about other people. I'm definitely nosy about my neighbors. I'm always looking out the window to see who's doing what. And, um, but. But yeah, I didn't know, like for sure I thought it would be a podcast, but I didn't know for sure.
But it was something that I really wanted to do and I had a hunch maybe other people would be interested in listening. Um, and it turns out I, I was right, but even if I had not been, I would still be satisfying my own curiosity around other women and how they got their start.
Neelam Patel: That makes sense. That makes sense.
Yeah. And I have to say in working with you, in the short time that we've known each other, it has felt like a very focused endeavor rather than something, oh, let's talk about, we'll figure it out. You know, that that part is fun, but there seems to be some groundedness and I can see where it is that it's just pure curiosity.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. And I just think that too, that, um, other. Not just women, but, but because I interview women, I think, um, my audience listens and they can, they connect with different parts of our stories. You know, they could be at a place in their lives where they're about to make a big change or maybe they're feeling stagnant in a job or whatever.
And just hearing from other women who've gone through the same thing, who may. Maybe they show up online and they look polished and you know, all successful. Like they have it all figured out, but none of us have it figured out.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. All messy, middle. We're all living it.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, um. So I'm curious to know when you just decided that you, this is what you're doing now, is what you were gonna do, you were gonna leave your job in tech, and I know you said that you, you were privileged to be able to do that. Right? What's, what was like really, what was the big deciding point?
You know, what was it that made you just say, you know what, I, this is, this is not for me anymore. This career in tech is not for me anymore and I need to follow this. Other path? Was it like, did you just wake up one day and say, you know what, today's the day and I just can't stay here anymore. Um, can you talk about that a little bit?
Neelam Patel: Um, you know, I did, I did title my book, burning it Down, dancing in the Rubble. So it may seem like I woke up one day and said, okay, I'm gonna burn it down.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: And it was kind of severe. Um. And it was a slow burn. So I would say that there was a time when I was considering it, and then I'm like, well, how am I gonna pay my mortgage?
You know, I better go look for something.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: And when that clicked, I started telling everyone again, just whoever had an ear that, oh, I'm looking for a job in tech, but I don't wanna write any more requirements and I just wanna talk to people. And that's it. Mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: And
Neelam Patel: I created a job like that and I told them I'm an artist and I need Fridays off and this and that.
So it became a little too convenient, you know?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Many, many years. And so, and I did well, I, uh, created a department and I solved problems that were ambiguous, which is where I shine, where I feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. And so when one ambiguous problem was solved, and we hired a team to do that, I would move on to a different ambiguous problem.
Mm-hmm. My fingerprints were on a lot of the different parts of the processes, so that ownership felt good. Mm-hmm. I would say there was a point, I mean, I did get laid off and so that was a decision point, so
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: The clarity of that. But even right before I got laid off, um, the next problem to solve was in branding.
And so I moved from customer success to sales to now branding. You know, like, okay, what are we gonna do? I had the most relationships with the customer, so I could kind of figure out. What they, what they would respond to, what the market was needing. And so
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: In position to do that, I created a document for it.
I created my plan, my, you know, marketing plan, all of it. And, you know, I did get laid off because I now no longer owned customers, so it wasn't needed during COVID, it was 2020. Mm-hmm. But there was a moment where I'm like, okay, if we continue on this path, I had to just look at it in reality is then the next few steps would be to be groomed to be the CEO of a tech company, maybe, you know?
Mm-hmm. Or stay in a role underneath or, and I'm like this, none of this feels like what I've ever wanted. Everything was, what do I need to do so I can get to rehearsal? You know?
Toby Myles: Yes.
Neelam Patel: And living a life for 22 some years in tech. Where your job is, to get out of there to do something else is an exhausting way to live life.
To be like just gonna get it done. And then if I need a break, I'll take a vacation.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Come back from vacation with all these good stories and then we'll do it again. And
Toby Myles: yeah.
Neelam Patel: To be able, you know, like I said, it was a privilege of take a step back and say, whoa, you know, if I keep doing this, it will be forever.
Mm-hmm. And of course, part of me is like, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? I didn't do this 15 years ago. But here we, here we were, and it's when I did have more financial security, you know?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think it's there. There's always gonna be that question of why didn't I do this sooner? I had wanted to leave my corporate job for years.
I worked for a. I worked for a big, um, international, um, printing and logistics company, but I worked in a very small division where we managed direct response campaigns through the mail and through email. And I was essentially, um, a, a client strategy manager, like a project manager. And so I got to manage teams of creatives and I always just felt like, oh, I, like, that's really what I wanna be doing.
I really wanna like write copy and, you know, I wanna do that little piece of it. But it was never an option for me in that. Role. Um, and the year that I decided that I was going to leave, I got a promotion and oh my gosh, I was just, I remember talking to my husband like, I, this just doesn't feel good. Like I felt it in my body, but I said yes anyway, and it turned out to be the worst 10 months.
I was at that job for 15 years, and those last 10 months were just. Ex excruciating. I was miserable. I was reporting to someone who was a micromanager, which is not, does not suit me at all. And um, I just, he and I talked about it. He's like, well, you know, see if you can stick it out till the end of the year and, and you were gonna leave anyway.
So give it a try and see how it goes. And. The end of that year, which was 2019. That was, that was it. And I remember, you know, the beginning of starting my own business as a, a copywriter was, I definitely didn't have it all figured out, but I never once said, oh, this was a mistake. You know, I always was like, oh, I should have done it sooner.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. But that's something. So I left with a really big salary. Right. I was SVP by then and staying at that level and producing more business for the business. And when I left and didn't have an income and basically, you know, rented my condo out, so I didn't have a place to stay. I had to go find, figure something out.
I felt, so even now to this day, to this moment mm-hmm. I feel more skin, more in my body. More alive. Yeah. Than ever. And that is something you can't put a price on. Yeah. And so that was, that was huge. And to your point about things getting worse, I didn't say this before, but. My life got excruciatingly worse and worse and worse.
Like there were moments where it was like, I think this is a sign you should leave, you know, but it, yeah, I couldn't follow it 'cause of the, my, the training in my body for years. Like if it feels
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: If it feels hard and a struggle, then it must be correct, like,
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: I think I had like really, really taken that in and luckily I found a really good therapist and I think that's also why I found the courage to be like, what's.
What's, what's what I want, you know? Or what's a little bit more,
Toby Myles: yeah,
Neelam Patel: what feels comfortable anyway, if not what I want, you know?
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. And that's not wrong, but yet we're raised, you know, to think that it's always like the next thing. Like you're climbing the ladder and it is gonna be hard and you're gonna power through and you're gonna figure it out.
And then you're gonna be this other new person and then the next thing and the next thing. And you know, like you said, I was just, I mean, there were days I was. Uh, literally under my desk in tears. And I remember my daughter was living here at the time. She was, had just moved, um, from Maryland. She was staying here for a while before she got her next apartment.
And I remember her like coming over to me under my desk. She's like, mom, like you have to get up off the floor.
Neelam Patel: It's real. It's
Toby Myles: just, yeah. Yes.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. I'm nodding my head in agreement with that. It's real.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah.
Neelam Patel: It's terrible. And we choose it because exactly we're in this conditioning that we'll hold our breath.
Mm-hmm. Until the next moment, you know, until the next milestone. And then we'll be happy. But then now we're addicted to milestones 'cause we think we can't be happy. Yeah. And I think that's where the present moment, the messy middle comes in like. Oh, how can we both be okay with where we are, even if it's not where we wanna be yet?
Mm-hmm. But it's sufficient. Mm-hmm. And I think it's hard to sell that message because sufficient is not sexy. Yeah. But I believe that like. Saying, okay, I've got this and I'm okay, and I want more.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: With a duality that seems impossible, but is required for sanity. Yeah. To be like, if the next thing happens, great.
If it doesn't, it doesn't. There's some amount of security I have in
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: The beauty of my life right now.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. And like you talk, you talked about feeling like comfortable, like literally, like you can feel it in your body when you feel like you're, you're, ooh. At least more in alignment with the things that you're meant to be doing.
So, um, I want to make sure that we talk about the keynote. Um, this episode is. Airing in April, but you and I are talking in March and you just gave a keynote and so, um, and you were sharing a little bit, um, about something really amazing. Um, someone came up to you afterwards and shared something and so I, I just, I just love that.
So I would love for you to talk about the keynote, what was the topic, and a little bit about that conversation because I think it's so, like when you stand on stage and you talk about something that you believe in and it. Resonates, and then there's like this whole ripple effect is like really like what it's all about.
Neelam Patel: Absolutely. Yeah. My topic is. Was called Presence as Medicine. It's the same, it's a similar talk I gave at South by Southwest, which is basically how, but I didn't use the same language for the healthcare workers, is how to be vulnerable and safe at the same time without forcing yourself to be bold, you know, and just.
Be centered and be available for the person in front of you.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: And so in the medical field, it was presence as medicine, as in your presence, is a delivery tool to your medicine. So if you're getting your, if you're just speaking to your patient to get the job done and you're like, okay, we're in this together, let's do it.
They may not feel that this person cares about me, but if you just use your heart and say the same thing like, Hey, I know this is a hard time. We're doing this together. Let me know if you have any questions.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: It's the same language, but the, I wouldn't even say tone, but your presence is available.
So the talk was to give tools on how to create presence. In the minute, in the, in the moment while you're talking to someone, you realize you've popped out how to get back in. They're kind of theater dance skills. Mm-hmm. And afterwards, um. And this was my first keynote and certainly my first time presenting to a medical, um, audience.
Uh, this doctor came up to me and said, your talk made me rethink mindfulness while I'm talking to my patients. I deeply care about my patients and I could see it in her body. When she said those words mm-hmm. That's her primary driver, I can tell. And she said, but I don't know if it's coming across.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: It's for her to even have that thought. Could then impact the love and care that she gives in a patient's room and the love and care that that patient gives to themselves. They're more,
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Protocol take care of themselves. If they feel their doctor cares and they no longer are patient doctor relationship, they come in with, oh, okay, let me tell them my symptoms, but rather I'm just a person and you're just, yeah.
Yeah, it was a moment of beauty and really like that was, that was it. I slept so well that night. Luckily was, was present enough to share that reflection back to me, you know?
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah.
Neelam Patel: Feel fortunate for that too.
Toby Myles: Yeah. I just, I think that's so key. I mean, I could really see that really growing beyond just this first, um, keynote and that first interaction because I don't know, I mean.
I don't think, I'm just speaking for myself when I say that we've all been in the room with a doctor who, you know, we're, we are supposed to think of them as the authority and we're supposed to revere them and they're the all knowing and whatever. But also like you kind of like question things, right?
You have to feel like you have some. Agency and you can say like, yeah, but no, that doesn't feel right. Or I know my body. And you know, and I think like having that, um, medical partner who is, well, you're both humans, like you said, like you're both humans. This person just happens to know more about, you know, medicine and the body.
But I know more about me and my body.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. Yeah.
Toby Myles: And, and, but you're, you know, they might have more education and student loans, but,
Neelam Patel: right. But you're right. Like you have to collaborate on your health rather than feel like you're being micromanaged about your health. It's not gonna, it's just not gonna work no matter how brilliant of a doctor you are.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: So it's trying to get that message across that, you know, I know you don't have time, but there's rapid ways to become present to what you're doing.
Toby Myles: Yeah. I love that so much. And I think like you could apply that same, um, dynamic to really anything, any, uh, you know, service provider, client relationship, right?
Like instead of, instead of saying, well, this is how we do things and, and you will do things this way. Um, it's more collaborative. You know, I have a community called her Story Authority and the women in the community are, are learning how to tell good stories based on their. Career experience. Right. And so it's, it's their experience and it's their words.
And I really am just the guide to kind of help them excavate the stories and tell them in a way that is compelling so that they can have the biggest impact on their audiences. Right? And so it's not for me to tell them what stories to tell. It's for them to look at their, you know. Breadth of experience over years and years and decide which voice stories to bring forward.
And so it's very much a collaboration, um, where I'm really just the guide to kind of like help them. And I think like that same sort of framework can apply in so many different industries.
Neelam Patel: That's such a thoughtful reflection because when I asked the doctor who hired me, like, what, what about my speech was helpful to your audience, do you think, in your opinion?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: He said, I really think it's important. Just what you said, but in his words was I think it's really important that the patient is the star of the show.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Neelam Patel: Um. So, yeah, it, it, I think it's, it's so profound and
Toby Myles: yeah.
Neelam Patel: I, there's reasons why we're, we, we have moments where we're not present. We know why our insecurities Sure.
Or our stress or other things.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. So, um, a couple things before we, um, close out this conversation. What, what is next for you? What is happening and going on in the world of Niem?
Neelam Patel: Well, um, I'm absorbing what this keynote was for me. Mm-hmm. I'd like to. Um, let the present moment show me what's next.
But I think it would be wise of me, especially after this conversation that, yeah, this conver, this conversation I gave with the, or a talk I gave to the doctors is helpful. So I'm gonna look at healthcare conferences mm-hmm. And diabetes conferences and see, uh, who has room for another keynote or who has, who has focus on wellness.
I'm also working on selling my custom poems, which I started right after COVID as well. Mm-hmm. So Mother's Day is coming up. So I do an experience where I sit down with someone for 40 minutes and usually by the end of that call that like last 10 minutes or five minutes even, we get to the heart of, oh, this is what this relationship means to me.
Mm-hmm. And then I create a piece that both. Both people can come to, to remember what that relationship.
Toby Myles: Oh, that's so good. Oh my God, that's so good. Uh, that's, I have not, I don't know, maybe it's, maybe I'm like living under a rock, but I've never heard someone say that doing a custom poem, so that is so intriguing.
That's so intriguing to me.
Neelam Patel: I'm just gonna ask, what's your favorite color? And where, like, I do ask that because I think it makes a beautiful piece, but really I, I want that piece to serve. As a purpose, I ask difficult questions out of the box so that,
Toby Myles: yeah.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. So that it can be a living, breathing piece that, oh, yes, this is, mm-hmm.
This is where the connection could grow, or, this is what I appreciate that's different about them, you know? Mm-hmm. So it can, yeah, I, I believe, like, I mean, you're an artist. You hope that your art does something good, not just. I mean, of course sometimes it's just a cute piece of jewelry that you wanna put out.
Toby Myles: Right?
Neelam Patel: Um, and if I'm going to bother you to spend time with you, I want this to be of value to you.
Toby Myles: Sure, yeah. Love that. So for, um, anyone listening who may be thinking about, um, leaving a job that they're not fulfilled in, um, starting a side hustle, um, just burning it all down and just diving right in, like what if you could give them one piece of advice, what would that be?
Neelam Patel: Um, be gentle with yourself. There's no other side. And I think that's why I wrote the book Dancing. Burning it Down. Dancing in the Rubble. Mm-hmm. 'cause I wrote it down and guess what, like people told me, stop and smell the roses. Well. Sometimes the roses just stink. Mm-hmm. All the things that you are bury under your day job will come to surface.
Mm-hmm. And that's okay. That's the real, that's the real juicy part of life. Be gentle. Let yourself have fun while you're dealing with all of this. You deserve to have fun, even if you haven't, quote unquote, figured it out.
Toby Myles: Right. There's
Neelam Patel: no other side. I think that's what I wanna say. The other side is right now.
Toby Myles: Yeah,
Neelam Patel: that's, that's what I would say.
Toby Myles: Oh, so good.
Neelam Patel: I have a little, little small poem about that, if you don't mind me sharing.
Toby Myles: Oh, please. I would love that.
Neelam Patel: Yeah. But what I'm saying is like you might, different feelings might come up, like shame, anger, rage, like all these things that were. Beautifully buried under.
I got another email to respond to. My boss needs this. It's the meeting PowerPoint, like all those things will cut, start surfacing. And so this poem is about like, that's okay.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: And one of my favorite poems, I say that about all my poems,
Toby Myles: it's
Neelam Patel: called, it's called the Turtle Poem. A turtle does not seek her shell from fear, hesitation, or shame.
She simply created a place inside of herself to rest, and that's the secret behind her little smile.
Toby Myles: Oh my gosh. I got goosebumps. Love that. I love that so much.
Neelam Patel: Yeah.
Toby Myles: So good.
Neelam Patel: You can have all these quote unquote, crazy feelings, but they are not you. Mm-hmm. And the present moment doesn't mean, ah, everything's great.
Mm-hmm. It can be very uncomfortable, but that's real and that's present and that's, that's a, a joy in and of itself to be able
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Neelam Patel: Be there with yourself.
Toby Myles: For sure. And it doesn't mean that you. Made the wrong choice either.
Neelam Patel: Right?
Toby Myles: Right.
Neelam Patel: I have that. Oh, in the middle of my keynote, the lights went out and I was like, okay, my brain is doing that thing, and I'm so glad I noticed.
I'm like, oh. 'cause my brain does this thing that if you go and follow your dreams, bad things will happen. And instead, when the lights went out, I was able to. Demonstrate in real time what it's like to get back to grounding. Mm-hmm. Like a little and grounded right now, and share that as part of what I was sharing.
Toby Myles: Yeah,
Neelam Patel: yeah, yeah. It's not black and white and things are good and bad, whether you follow your dreams or not. The real check-in is what's my body doing? What's my
Toby Myles: body? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. So good. I honestly think we're gonna have to have a part two, because I feel like. We could just keep going and I would keep thinking of things that I want.
I wanted to ask you, maybe we could
Neelam Patel: do it in person.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Oh my gosh, yes. We should totally do it in person. I, I was laughing when you said that this poem was your favorite, but you say it about all your poems. And that's what I say about my podcast episodes when someone says, oh, tell me some of your favorite episodes.
And I'm like, oh, well there's this one, or there's that one. It's like, actually they're all my favorite for all different reasons. It just depends, like, what does the episode someone near needs to hear in this moment? Yeah. Um, so before we, before we say goodbye, um, where can people find you and follow you?
Neelam Patel: Sure. Um, my Instagram is @DancewithNeelam, that's Dance with Neelam. And EMM is spelled N like Nancy, E-E-L-A-M, like Mary Neelam. Um, and my website is tailoredpoetry.com.
Toby Myles: Perfect. We'll include everything in the show notes. Thank you so much, Neelam. And this has been amazing, um, as I knew it would be. And, um, yeah, we're gonna do a part two.
We're gonna, I think in person is a great idea. I think we should do that.
Neelam Patel: I love that. And I wanna say to your audience, congratulations on wherever you are right now. It's exactly where you're supposed to be.
Toby Myles: Amazing. Thank you so much.