Communication expert, executive advisor, and creator of The Confidence Cocktail™, Karen Laos shares her journey from a childhood lesson in negotiation to commanding stages at Google and Netflix. In this episode, we talk about the mixed messages she received growing up, the pivotal boardroom moment that taught her to trust her gut, and why learning to communicate with confidence can change the course of your career and your life.
Check Out These Highlights:
What happens when early lessons about speaking up collide with cultural conditioning that tells you to stay quiet?
In this episode, Karen Laos takes us back to a flea market at age six, where her dad taught her the power of asking for what you want. She reflects on the confusing mix of influences she grew up with a father who reinforced negotiation and a mother who modeled silence at home but leadership in the community, and how those experiences shaped her confidence.
Karen shares the moment in a corporate boardroom when she realized she had been asking for permission instead of trusting her instincts, and how that breakthrough set her on a mission to help women overcome self‑doubt. We explore why cultural conditioning often leads women to put others’ needs first, the importance of specificity in networking, and how vulnerability can open doors to deeper connection.
She also introduces her Confidence Cocktail framework, eight ingredients that build what she calls “powerhouse presence” and explains why communication is both a skill and a practice. From coaching executives to helping female founders pitch with influence, Karen shows how clarity, courage, and presence can transform not just your career, but your life.
About Karen Laos:
Karen Laos is a communication expert, executive advisor, and creator of The Confidence Cocktail™. She helps leaders, especially women, find their voice, trust their instincts, and communicate with clarity and courage.
Connect with Karen:
🌐 Website: https://karenlaos.com/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlaos/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karenlaosofficial/
📹Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEwQoTGdJX5eME0ccBKiKng/videos
🎁 Free Resource: 3 Strategies to Speak Up in Meetings
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My guest today is Karen Laos, communication expert, executive advisor, and creator of The Confidence Cocktail. In our conversation, Karen shares how a lesson from her dad at a flea market when she was just six years old sparked a lifelong fascination with speaking up, negotiating, and asking for what you want. But she also talks about the mixed messages she received growing up and how those early experiences shaped her confidence in ways she didn't fully understand until much later. We talk about finding your voice, trusting your instincts in high-stake moments, and why learning to communicate with confidence can change the course of your career and your life.
Toby Myles: Hey, Karen. Welcome to the podcast.
Karen Laos: Thank you.
Toby Myles: I appreciate you being here. We're having a little chat about your beautiful background. I'm sorry for people who are only listening and don't get to see it, but it's absolutely stunning. Um, and I said to Karen, "I don't know if I would get any work done 'cause I would be facing out towards the view and not towards my laptop."
Um, so anyway, um, I appreciate you being here. We met on LinkedIn, I think maybe through Christie Mitchell.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: You know, there's always kind of like these little winding paths, and I think the first time we talked we were like, "How did we get connected?" And I think we tied it back to Christie Mitchell. So, uh- Yes
I, I know you're super busy, I'm super busy, and so I really appreciate you carving out the time to be here, and I'm excited for our conversation. So I would love it if you could take me back to a point in time, or maybe it's m- multiple different moments that you feel like really put you on the path that you're on right now.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm. When I was six years old, my dad took me to a flea market, and he gave me a few dollars and he said, "Go have fun, but never pay full price." And I remember in that moment, I don't know if I was just afraid or wanted to please him or some combination of both, but I was absolutely exhilarated- ... that you didn't have to pay what was right there in print.
So that was really exhilarating, and I, I share that story because my dad consistently, throughout the course of my childhood, would always say, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease. You don't have if you don't ask." So I was very much enforced or re- it was reinforced all the time. But at the same time, I had a, a mom that was very traditional, es- or the parent, my parents' relationship, and so she was very much about submitting to her husband, and in the home she didn't have a voice.
At least, that's what was modeled to me. Mm-hmm. She never explicitly said that.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: But ironically, in the community she was a powerhouse. She was always gettin'- getting written up, o- o- with awards for leading this thing and that thing. And so it was confusing as a kid to- Yeah ... to navigate that. And so the way I, what I made sense of and what that, why that leads me to what I do now is that it really hit me that, okay, it's about when you provide value to someone, and that value is usually done in some level of an accomplishment.
Mm-hmm. So when I provide a deliverable or an outcome or something like that in business, that's why I've been successful in business. But then having to navigate those moments, because then many years later- I was tongue-tied in a boardroom even though I was commanding stages at Google and Netflix and Facebook.
In front of my boss, who I realized later was actually the archetype of my dad Oh, wow. She... I just couldn't get the words out because I didn't agree with what she suggested I present, but I was taught you don't question your boss, you just figure it out.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: But in that very moment, I was completely mortified because she shut down the meeting, she pulled me aside, and she said, "Karen, you didn't trust your gut."
Oh. "You could have tabled the meeting." And I was thinking in that moment two things. Number one, what? I could have tabled the meeting? And then secondly, why do I keep asking for permission?
Toby Myles: Mm.
Karen Laos: And that was the day that I really set out to figure out what, what was the deeper root of my problem, and realizing, probably like a lot of people listening to this, I see this all the time in my work, is that even...
'Cause I usually work with people that are in their 40s to 60s, and I remember somebody who said once, "I'm a 52-year-old woman with a lot of responsibility, but I feel like a 12-year-old in front of my boss."
Toby Myles: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And so those are, those are a lot of different, um, things that have come together to really shape why I am on a mission to reach 10 million women in helping them overcome self-doubt and speak with confidence instead.
Toby Myles: Wow.
Karen Laos: So that is my mission.
Toby Myles: Wow. I'm curious, uh, I mean, you talk about your upbringing, but do you think that that, um, women between, you know, 40s and 60s have had sim- similar upbringings? Like, is that where so many women struggle sometimes because of their upbringing? Is it, you know, the business world? Is it, you know, our culture?
Like, can you point to one thing that, that is really the culprit in why we don't feel confident to speak up?
Karen Laos: I'd say it's multiple things. It's a combination of upbringing and culture outside of your home. Because even- people with upbringings where they were encouraged to debate. For example, I think about a woman that I used to work with.
She would always push back with my boss, and I would marvel almost jaw-droppingly, look at her and thinking, "I can't believe she's talking to my boss like that."
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: But she garnered respect from my boss, and the pushback was... And I remem- anyway, the pushback was very strong, but the respect was also there.
And I remember asking her, "What was it like in your home?" Mm-hmm. And she said, "Oh, like we debated all the time at the dinner table." Well, that was not at all my experience. My experience was you don't, you don't speak up unless you are asked a question.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: Or, you know, it's that whole be seen not heard. So I'd say that there's a combination, but the, the...
And there's so many interesting studies around this too. There's also a documentary called Pioneers in Skirts.
Toby Myles: Oh.
Karen Laos: And this mother-daughter team went around and were following girls in elementary school who were really into robotics, and they had a lot of confidence. And then over time, that confidence eroded.
And so then it was trying to figure out at what point did that erode. And it's... I, I don't know that there's exactly like, "Here's the one thing."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: But I do think that we have been s- as women so culturally conditioned to put everybody's needs above our own. Even I did an interesting research, very informal research study once going to a big conference for three days, and I might have had probably 10 meaningful conversations.
And I asked each of those women, "How can I best support you?" Or, "What are you looking for?" Some version of that. Mm-hmm. "Who could I introduce you to?" And it was m- most of them, probably eight out of 10, just stared at me and said, "Wow, that's a really good question." As if they had never thought about it. Yeah.
And so I always tell people you have to make sure that you know what you want, so that when somebody does present themselves-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: that could help you, you, you're clear on what it is that you want. But most of us have not been trained that way.
Toby Myles: Mm. That is so good. It makes me think about all of the time I've wasted at networking events- Uh-huh
because I didn't have a specific something, right? Yeah. Like you go thinking, "Oh, well, of course I'm going to get clients," but not necessarily. Like there are a lot of other things that you could ask for help with, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the more specific you are, the more likely you are- It, it helps the other person, right?
Right. Like, if I say specifically- Right ... "Karen, I need, you know, women in, from 40 to 50 who have survival stories to come on my podcast," you might automatically think of, like, five people, right? Mm-hmm. But if I just say, "Well, I interview women for my podcast," you'd be like, "Well, okay."
Karen Laos: Exactly, and that is such a great example of that, and it, it, it's fascinating, too, and I've ex- observed this in my own life.
When I'm specific about how, when people say, "Oh, how can I help you?" I always have something in mind for them to- Yeah ... respond to.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's so good. So, uh, you, you talk about, um, ask for what you want, um, and I'm just curious- I mean, you, you... Okay, so we started out talking about you as six years old.
Um, h- what happened along the way, like, um, that idea of, like, you know, you don't have to pay the price tag, you can always negotiate, you know? And so, so take me through, like, what happened from that little girl to you, um, you know, getting a little bit older and then kind of deciding on your career path. I mean, did you go straight to, you know, knowing what it was that you wanted to do, or what, what things happened in between that kind of led you to where you are now?
Karen Laos: I always knew that I loved people and why they tick.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: So the closest thing that I could envision was a psych degree.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: But it's not like I said, "Oh," like, "I wanna be this," and go do that.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: I just knew, okay, psychology degree would get me somewhere related. Like, and I also knew, I mean, at that time when I went to college, you got a psych degree typically because you were going to be some type of counselor or therapist.
Toby Myles: Right.
Karen Laos: And so I... That was not an interest of mine, and I was a sophomore in college when we got our textbooks, and I was sitting at my desk, and I open up this book, and it was Organizational Development and Psychology, and I couldn't believe, to think that you could mix business and psychology, and that was a moment I will never forget, because I thought, "That is so fascinating."
Like, I didn't know what that would look like. Mm-hmm. But then if you fast-forward to after college, moving out to San Francisco, I landed a job i- at a temp company in the HR department for Gap. And that was when I realized, oh my gosh, I, I just love this, and that's when I realized, oh, this is HR, is probably my thing.
Mm-hmm. But then I very quickly realized that it was about the development part of HR that I loved, not the comps and benefits and administrative work, but really helping to make, be a catalyst, I would say, for change in transforming the way people come across.
Toby Myles: Mm.
Karen Laos: Primarily through their communication. And so that really led me onto a path where, you know, I had a few HR jobs here and there, then, then worked at the Gap for a number t- a number of years in there as a consultant, corporate trainer.
Mm-hmm. And that's where I s- realized, oh my gosh, I love corporate training, and then I found how much I loved just being in front of a big audience and connecting with them and seeing the, just the, I don't know, what do you call it? Just the thrill and the reward of being able to offer something of value to a large group of people.
And so I've really been speaking now on these big stages since 2006, really.
Toby Myles: Wow.
Karen Laos: Yeah.
Toby Myles: That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, did you ever... Was there ever a time... Because you... It, it seems like it's very natural for you.
Karen Laos: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Toby Myles: I'm somebody that- It, you know, it is on my, um, list of things to do to... I'm working on a keynote and- Ooh
I will get on stage one day, but it is not like anything that I ever thought I would do, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm an introvert. Uh, and so, I- but for you, it just seems like it came very naturally to you. Would you say that's true or no?
Karen Laos: That is true. That is true. So it comes naturally for me. I love an audience.
I I'm definitely a, a very high extrovert, even from the time I was a kid. You know, every day I would come home from school and ask my mom to either, "Can somebody come over to play," or, "Can I go to somebody else's house?" And when I think about the extrovert, like the natural part of me is that is there.
Mm-hmm. But it's also really important to share that communication isn't a skill that you just are naturally born with.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: I had to work very diligently and intentionally on my craft of knowing things like how do I use my voice, how do I pause, how would I speak with vocal conviction, avoiding the ums, working on my posture and my hand gestures and how to move on stage.
There's so many nuances that add up to somebody's presence, and-
Toby Myles: Mm ...
Karen Laos: that's really where I focus my energy now, on what I call powerhouse presence, and it's technique combined with the whole just persona of you. So of course there's techniques that we c- we start with the micro behaviors, you know, things like, okay, what do I do with my hands, or how do I deal with my facial expressions.
Toby Myles: Right.
Karen Laos: And even things like raising your eyebrows sometimes rather than smiling from ear to ear. And so when you put all those micro behaviors together, it's like a behavior set that then become a skill, and then over time you start evolving into making those skills really your own.
Toby Myles: Hmm. So
Karen Laos: because it's like anything, you can have the structure- Mm-hmm
but or the architecture of a house, but then you make it a home when you go into it. Mm-hmm. So that's also the way I envision powerhouse presence, because I don't want anybody to think like they have to be a robot. It's sim- Right ... but it's starting with just like athletics, you know, or a golf swing or basketball, whatever.
You're learning these skills, and sometimes we have to take a step back. You know that saying we have- we get worse before we get better?
Toby Myles: Yes.
Karen Laos: So sometimes that happens too, and the sad part is a lot of people aren't willing to live in that limbo land of- Hmm ... the moments that it takes to change.
Toby Myles: Yes, yeah. Y- you, when you talked about golf, immediately I was like, "Okay, I get it."
Mm-hmm. When my son was middle school, he loved golf. And so- Ah ... as something we could do together, we took golf lessons. And I was always an athlete, so I w- I thought, "I'm gonna be good at golf lessons," like this is not a problem for me. And golf is a whole, a whole other thing. And so- Mm-hmm ... yeah, I was okay at it.
Mm-hmm. But in order to get better at it- Our, our golf coach wanted to videotape us and our swing. Oh, fun. And then he would videotape us individually, take us back to his computer, show us a few things, and then say, "Okay, you're doing this, and so when you go out there, I want you to focus on this instead." It would be- Mm-hmm
you know, he broke it down into the small little chunks.
Karen Laos: Yes.
Toby Myles: And ugh, it was not pretty. I'm telling you. It was... I went from, like, okay to really bad. And I do have to say, it was kind of frustrating.
Karen Laos: Hmm.
Toby Myles: It was kind of frustrating. Yeah. So, so what tools do you use then to keep somebody kind of moving through those kind of awkward moments where things are kind of breaking down, you're asking them to notice certain things, I would think.
I would think- Mm-hmm ... that it's a lot for the, for someone to keep in their brain, like, "Ooh," you know? I just said, "Um, oh no, I just..." You know? All the things. I know. Like, it ha- it could be overwhelming. Yeah. How, how do you kind of coach somebody through those things?
Karen Laos: Yeah. Well, the first thing is just like your golf coach did, is get them on video.
30 seconds- Oh,
Toby Myles: okay ...
Karen Laos: something about yourself. Mm-hmm. So right away we're able to see some things. Now, the thing that most people are surprised by, in part I think it's because people are our own worst critics, so we're already catastrophizing- Yeah ... how something is gonna look.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: Thinking, "Oh, I don't wanna watch myself."
So the first thing is people are often surprised at the compliments that I give, and I'm not giving them for fluff sake. Yeah. But it's really sometimes people don't even realize what they're doing. Like, it could be, "Wow, you have a great facial expression," or, "You're beautifully paced in the way that you deliver your material."
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And those... Most of the time people are simply unaware, and so they're not looking for those things, but that's what I extract. Mm-hmm. And that's already a great experience, 'cause I always tell them, "Make sure that you are watching for the things that you're doing well, almost like it's somebody else," objective observer.
Toby Myles: Okay.
Karen Laos: And then the... And then we focus on one area at a time. Mm-hmm. So, and I did have somebody once who said, "I want it all. Just tell me everything." And it was too overwhelming, and then later she came back to me. She goes, "You're right. I couldn't focus on anything."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: So for example, you mentioned ums, so thinking about replacing um with silence, simply pausing, and that can feel a little bit strange.
At first, most of the time people will say it, kinda like what you modeled a little bit ago- Right ... um, um, and then, "Oh, I keep saying it. I keep saying..." And then eventually there's more awareness, and then the silence is already an immediate benefit, and this is why continuing to record and record and record as much as you can, so you can see the progress.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: And, and do it in real-life scenarios. Of course it's, it is still incredibly helpful when we're doing it together, but there's a power to doing it in a real-life meeting when you can.
Toby Myles: Oh, okay. Wow.
Karen Laos: Mm, mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: Yeah. So most of the women that you work with, are they... What is their goal? Are they wanting to be on stage like you or not necessarily?
Karen Laos: Sometimes not necessarily. It's- Yeah ... I would say, and I, I work, definitely work with, uh, men and women, but I've... my love is women especially. And it could be any type of... I would say most people are motivated by something that is coming up. So it might be, "Oh, I have this high-stakes board presentation." Or I work with a lot of female founders and helping them with their pitch deck, for example.
Toby Myles: Okay.
Karen Laos: And really being ready to ask for that money and, and I mean, even... And then, uh, sometimes it's somebody who's gonna be on a panel. Or it's- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... you know, some specific event or a town hall. I work a lot with, um... I've got some, a couple of retainers with corporate, um, organizations, and so it's things like, "Hey, this person needs to speak with more influence at the next town hall."
Toby Myles: Mm. Okay.
Karen Laos: Or in front of, you know, there was another medical device company. They said, "We have all these partners, and they are not necessarily representing us in the best way possible. They need to influence more." Mm-hmm. Yeah, things like that. Biotech recently said, "I've gotta get my people to leave meetings with a specific action.
They're not asking for what they need."
Toby Myles: Yeah. So, uh, the one thing that you mentioned, uh- Is your confidence cocktail, is that part of the process? And what does that look like?
Karen Laos: Yes. Yes. That is a methodology, so- Okay ... I, I mean, everybody has a different picture of what a cocktail is, but I- Yeah ... reference I don't even really drink, but It's still, to me, fun.
So there are eight ingredients that help the, uh, if we think about the result is powerhouse presence. Mm-hmm. There's three Cs, essentially, to powerhouse presence, and that's becoming a clear, compelling and credible communicator. And so then the way that we get there is through these eight ingredients. If you imagine the stem of a glass, I personally like the martini glass visual.
Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's various ingredients in there, things like your identity, really getting clear on who you are and what experience you want to create with people around you. How do you want people to perceive you? What do you want to be known for, for example? Mm-hmm. And then there's mindset.
Toby Myles: Yeah. D-
Karen Laos: with the doubt, and how do we tackle that? There's the specific presence components and really breaking those down, kind of like I touched a little bit on earlier. Mm-hmm. And then there's the message itself. How do you create a message with confidence that's clear? And there's thinking on your feet, negotiation, leadership, and I think I'm forgetting the other one.
Anyway, and then at the base of the glass is courage because if, we're not gonna do anything if we don't have the courage to-
Toby Myles: Right ... forward. Right. Yeah. I love that.
Karen Laos: Yeah.
Toby Myles: I love that. It's very clear.
Karen Laos: So that's, that's the... Usually what we do is I have, I have somebody look at that visual, so I have an assessment that they do on their own and say- Mm-hmm
"Okay, which of those areas do I most wanna start with?" Mm-hmm. Because everybody's gonna... And, and the reason why, why, what I base it on is the, really now over the years, thousands of people that I've coached, on what is it that helps somebody to be in that place where they have that powerhouse presence. And so those are the different ingredients.
So some people don't need as much. Like, I have a client- Right ... she said, "I've never had an issue with confidence." Fantastic. So we're really dialing in. She wants to build her own empire. She's really focusing on commanding the room with her presence.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: So we're doing, dialing in really deep on her message as well as the way she comes across.
Toby Myles: Yes. I love that. It's interesting, though. Confidence is an interesting word, right? 'Cause I think of myself as a pretty confident person, but I do know that in certain situations I will be anxious, nervous. And self-conscious because I think everybody knows that I'm anxious and nervous.
Karen Laos: Mm. Well, and it was really interesting diving deeper with this particular person, because she said her biggest fear is not winning.
Toby Myles: Oh.
Karen Laos: So, you know, you could argue, well, there's, there... Maybe there's not the doubt that plagues a lot of people.
Toby Myles: Right.
Karen Laos: There's still fear there around the not winning piece. Interesting. So then it's... Yeah. Uh, people are just fascinating, aren't they? I should say we. Yeah. We fascinating.
Toby Myles: We're
Karen Laos: fascinating. As human beings, we're so complex and- Mm-hmm
sometimes it's hard to know, like, where does that... Yeah. What, like, the different origins of things.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: But then really... And, and frankly, that's why I ended up leaving the, my corporate job back in 2019 or 2020, because I realized I could teach anybody to be an amazing communicator. The tech- Mm-hmm ... you know, it's like athletes.
You're, you have a skill. Right. You come with a skill. And yet what we didn't dive into was the internal work, and so I wanted the freedom to be able to fully put that out there, that-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: hey, doubt is second-guessing. Uh, there's a lot of things that are prevalent. And I recently met a woman on a plane who has 30 years of experience, was recently brought in to lead this huge part of this company, and she said, "I second-guess myself all the time."
So it's, it's everywhere.
Toby Myles: It's everywhere. It's everywhere. I, last year I did a 10-minute talk. I signed up to do a 10-minute talk to a group of 100 people online. There was a group of us, and the topic was up to us, and I did it to challenge myself, 'cause I do wanna get on stage and I do wanna deliver a keynote.
Yeah. And I thought, well, if I could do 10 minutes, then I could expand on that. You know, then maybe the next time I can do just a regular talk, not a keynote, like- Mm-hmm ... 30 minutes, you know, and then work up to it. And my biggest fear was that I was gonna forget something, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Like, that was what I worried about most.
And so, uh, I prepared the way that the coach trained us to, but- And I did make one mistake in the beginning that almost tripped me up, but I kept going. Mm-hmm. But when I listened to it back later, it felt very, like, stiff and-
Karen Laos: Oh ...
Toby Myles: rehearsed, and it, not at all like... I mean, it, it very much sound like I was reading something that I memorized, which I was, right?
Yeah. And so how do you... Like, on the one hand, I think being prepared is part of the whole picture, right? Mm-hmm. Like you said, it, knowing your message, knowing who you are, all those things. But then how do you, how do you balance that, like, being prepared, but then also being in the moment and actually sounding like a human?
Karen Laos: Well, this is a very common thing for people, because you're absolutely right. There's something that, I, I, I don't know what happens in our brains, it's where we suddenly when we're in front of people, we start getting into this presenter mode, I call it.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: And this was when I was training facilitators and speakers at my last job.
That was always the hardest thing to get people to get to where they were just simply their conversational selves up in front- Yeah ... of a room. And so number one, it's knowing your content inside and out, practicing more times than you might think you need to.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And then because the more you know your content, this might sound obvious, but the more you know your content, the more free your brain is, and your body frankly, to be able to practice these things.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: So the way that I would actually do it strategically, and do this with people still today, but I think I'd, I, I had it more volume years ago where I was coaching people. And so what I would do is I would set up a recorder in the room, but they didn't necessarily think it was on.
Toby Myles: Oh.
Karen Laos: And so we would be talking at the table- Mm-hmm
you know, about, "Okay, here's this next section." "Okay, great." Um, so then I would kinda just start, you know, "Tell me more about that." Mm. And I would start getting up off the table, from the table, and they would follow suit, and then they'd just start talking, and that was a way to get them to simply, you know, as they kept talking to me- Yeah
then suddenly they were presenting, but they were talking. Yeah. And then, then when they see it on video, I mean, that's really where the magic happens, when you see the difference.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: So it's, it's a, it's, it's still tough because- Yeah ... most of us have some perceived notion in our, again, our brains, our nervous system, whatever you wanna call it, when we go up onto a stage or a platform, whatever that looks like- Mm-hmm
and then we flick into this performance mode.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And if we can try to think about it as I'm just having a conversation with, you know, maybe there's- Yeah ... 50 people here, 100 people. But, um, it takes practice for sure, and that's where the recording is super helpful because you see the reality right there.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. But n- but knowing your material, knowing your stuff, knowing your- thoughts and ideas that are unique to you so that you can just talk about. I think well, sometimes you'll see somebody post something on LinkedIn, like what's something you could you could talk for 10 minutes about without looking at any notes, right?
Karen Laos: Yes.
Toby Myles: And I kind of think of it like that. It's like, you know, I have a few things I could talk about. I have a- Yeah ... smooth- smoothie every day for breakfast, so I could give you like a whole sm- you know, my 10 different favorite s- smoothie recipes, and it would probably take more than 10 minutes. So in my work, when I work with my clients, one of the things that we work on is how you take just everyday moments, things you might not even think are story-worthy, and turn them into a story that connects with other humans.
And initially, people are maybe a little reluctant to share anything personal, you know? Or they don't know where that line is, like how, how personal is okay. "I'm not sure how I feel about this. This isn't a business story. It's a personal story." And I always argue that people, even if it's a personal story, people are gonna see themselves in your story, and the whole point of storytelling is to connect with other humans, right?
Mm-hmm. And so I'm wondering, is that an aspect of your work, encouraging people to share some of the more vulnerable things, or does it really just depend on the individual?
Karen Laos: Absolutely, I would say yes, for sure. Okay. I mean, vulnerability opens up connection, and it shows a lot of strength, and courage, and all of that.
I r- am a big believer in that. And I do think that it's important to have appropriate vulnerability. I think sometimes people don't know what that actually looks like, and-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: it, I find that actually fascinating, because I have a friend that just grew up very formally.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And what she calls vulnerable is very different than my vulnerable.
Toby Myles: Yes. Yeah.
Karen Laos: And, and so for her, it's, you know, and this is often what I'll ask clients too, of what would feel... You know, it's that, it's that balance of wanting to invite people out of their comfort zones where they will grow, but also not have them just spill their guts on the table - Right. ... because sometimes too much is too much.
Toby Myles: Yes, absolutely.
Karen Laos: But it's knowing, just like you teach the art of storytelling, it's figuring out, okay, well, what, what is appropriate to share, share, what isn't? And so I always think about, well, what would add value to somebody else? Mm-hmm. And I think everybody understands the concept of, hey, if somebody shares something with you that is going on in their life, you're probably more inclined to share something as well.
It builds trust and all of
Toby Myles: that. Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Laos: But, um, it, yeah, this, this is where the practice runs come in-
Toby Myles: Yes ...
Karen Laos: to determine what makes the most sense.
Toby Myles: Yes. Yes. And I've heard people say, uh, share from, share from the wound, not the scar, right? So we're not- Oh ... talking, like, this isn't a therapy session. We don't want you breaking down in tears.
That's not the point of this. But something that, that you can- Mm ... have some perspective on that was long enough ago that you see the lesson, and you're healed- Yes ... enough that you can talk about it in a way- Right ... that is relatable, right?
Karen Laos: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and, and oh, an example just of the story that I shared earlier about saying I was tongue-tied in a boardroom.
Mm-hmm. I don't need to get into all of the details around- Mm-hmm ... what I was thinking inside and what happened. I mean, that's the other thing, is that sometimes people put way too much detail that's irrelevant-
Toby Myles: Right ...
Karen Laos: to the story. You know, how do you create that story that's really pithy, concrete enough that we can picture it and almost imagine- Mm-hmm
ourselves there, but not too much that it-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm ...
Karen Laos: tunes people out?
Toby Myles: That's interesting. Does your work at all touch on, uh, people that want to go to a boss and maybe ask for a promotion? Like-
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: Okay.
Karen Laos: Yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah. 'Cause I do think that that would be an area where- And people, you know, it's, it's a personal thing, right?
They feel very vulnerable even though they might think they deserve it, right? Mm-hmm. They feel very vulnerable and could- Mm-hmm ... could find themselves in that situation where still they, they ask for less or they agree to less. And so what's- Yeah ... h- how does that, how do you, how do you get somebody in that, in that frame of mind where they feel confident to go in and, and say, "I, I deserve this"?
Karen Laos: Yeah, the, from the confi- confidence perspective I recommend what I call a celebration portfolio, which is to make a list of all of your accomplishments.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: Maybe, maybe not, you know, your entire life. Whatever would be easy, but sit down and say for f- you know, set a timer for 15 minutes and just write down everything you can think of-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm
Karen Laos: be over the past six months to a year. But in addition to that, writing out your character strengths because a lot of people don't think about their character qualities because they're just themselves. They're, they don't think about that as- Mm-hmm ... being unique. And so the more we can write those things down, things like y- you know, maybe the person has a particularly positive attitude so it draws people in, or they create a feeling of psychological safety, so then that builds trust really quickly.
So starting with a list of something where you can feel you're pumped up yourself to really believe, "Yeah, I deserve this." Yeah. But then there's the actual tactical piece of how do you make the actual ask, and I always remind people there's a difference between, like if you're my boss, you know, saying, "Hey boss, I'd, I'd like to have a promotion."
You know, that's direct.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: But it's about you.
Toby Myles: Right.
Karen Laos: It's such a different feel when you think about, and this, this goes to show for any- anything that I would recommend related to presenting yourself, is know your audience. So why would they care? Mm-hmm. Why would this matter? Mm-hmm. So if you've done your research and you can be able, you can say, "I know that we are looking to expand the marketing department.
I would love to help with that. And so what I'd love to do, you know, are you open to hearing my idea around that?" Mm-hmm. And then you get that buy-in a little bit there in the beginning, and then you say, then you can straight up say, "I'd like a promotion to do that, and here's why."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: And that's such a different feel.
I mean, I did that- For
Toby Myles: sure ...
Karen Laos: more than once, probably three different times in my career I created new jobs that didn't exist.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: And it was all about making the sell based on what the person I was pitching cared about.
Toby Myles: Mm. That's so good. Yeah, that's so good. I think that's true, not just in asking for a, a raise or a promotion, but I, I think that is just like being a decent human and not just coming at someone with, "Hey, you know, I, I want you to hire me," or, "I want you to join my thing."
Like t- flip the focus from yourself to the other person and- Yes ... show them that you understand that- They need help and you can help them.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Toby Myles: I mean, it feels like such a simple concept, but I feel like so many people- ... miss it.
Karen Laos: I know. Yeah, we get so fixated on ourselves and all of the anxiety that we might be feeling and- Mm-hmm
to the point of that vulnerable feeling when you make an ask, and then you don't know what the response is gonna be, so there's a lot of that fear and all of that that sits... And, and if we just think what's, what's actually needed here-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: and right in front of me, and-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: what can I do to support that?
Toby Myles: Yeah. There's a networking group that I'm in, that I joined recently, and one of... And their motto is, uh, give, give, ask. So you offer- Oh ... you offer what you can offer. You know, for example, I could say, "Hey, I'm looking for people to be on my podcast," right? Yeah. Or there was a time when I was doing a Saturday newsletter and I would offer a little spot for somebody to share their freebie, something like that.
Mm-hmm. And so you give- Mm-hmm ... once or twice before you ask for anything in return. And I have to say that it made the whole experience feel less icky.
Karen Laos: Hmm.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Like, we started talking about networking. I- it's for me, it's just always felt a little icky, but in that- Yeah, yeah ... in that way where you just kind of flip it and offer something first and then ask.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: I think it's in line with what you were just talking about.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you had a recent podcast episode about networking- Yes ... with joy- Yep ... right?
Toby Myles: Yep.
Karen Laos: Yeah.
Toby Myles: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I would love to know- On your journey, and maybe this will help some of our listeners, because I have a lot... There are a lot of people out there that are, uh, new to entrepreneurship or maybe thinking about starting something, and it's not easy.
It's never easy. I mean, most of us, uh, my m- I, I, speaking for myself, I still wouldn't trade it for the alternative.
Karen Laos: Yes.
Toby Myles: But I guess what are the things that have kept you going over the years, and what would you suggest to other people when things just feel uncertain and challenging?
Karen Laos: You definitely have to find your why.
I know that is an old story, but it's a very powerful one, because if we don't have that why, and I think it was, um... What's, uh... My gosh, I think it... Chris, the guy that, uh, is the host for Diary of a CEO podcast.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: I'm forgetting his name now, but- Yeah, same. I, I will never forget one of his posts that talked about if you're...
Y- like, basically that you have to be willing to work with no reward for 10 years.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: Y- you... And just the perspective of that, I think, is so powerful, of sink your teeth into something- Mm-hmm ... that gives you purpose that you could work for at least 10 years to go for. Mm-hmm. And that, that... I don't know, there's something about that 10-year mark.
I had another friend that I was frustrated at my five-year mark, and she just said, "Karen," it... And she's this big- You know, she's got a lot of employees and big company, definitely doesn't have to worry about money, and she said, "It took me 10 years. 10 years." And that's not something most of us wanna hear, especially when we're- No
starting out. Mm-hmm. I mean, that, that is not a good feeling when you imagine 10 years in front of you. Mm-hmm,
Toby Myles: mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: So for me, it's really knowing the why, and then it's also, for me personally, it's my faith, for sure.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: So yeah, a- and so the, the why really around helping women speak up, I mean, I see it so often, and I see so many missed opportunities.
You know, I just did a post today on LinkedIn where somebody immediately commanded the room at this event, and she was amazing, and then somebody else just came up to me and started pitching me like a fire hose, and I thought, "This is such a great example
Toby Myles: of- Yeah ...
Karen Laos: different amazing examples, one really negative, one really positive in the same event."
Yeah. So it's like these real-life things, just like you were talking about before about your storytelling and when you coach people on that, of how do you make these real-life scenarios something meaningful? Yeah. And so that's the same thing when I think about, like, my work is super meaningful to me, and that's what keeps me going.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Karen Laos: And then in the times where, yeah, I mean, certainly there have been times. Thankfully, it hasn't been for a little while now the last couple years, but-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Karen Laos: I definitely thought about, "Do I need to go back and get a job?" Like, how- Yeah ... and then I don't know if it's... Yeah, I could go on and on about the challenges, for sure.
And it seems like there's, you know, the... The other thing that I've learned is that I've, I certainly have never arrived. Yeah. Like, I've- Right ... oh, this is the thing that's gonna be it.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: And then, I re- I remember getting on, um... Are you familiar with Donald Miller? Mm-hmm. The Story Brand? Okay.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: Yeah, so I remember when he invited me on his podcast, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is gonna be-"
Toby Myles: You've made it.
Karen Laos: So, so there's nothing that phases me anymore.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Karen Laos: I have no expectation- Yes ... of anything because I've had too many false moments like that.
Toby Myles: For sure. You think something is gonna be something, and it's not. I've had two guests on my podcast, and I, I won't mention their names just out of respect for them.
Both amazing humans, but also both very well-known. And I remember thinking when they both said yes at different times, it was like, "Oh my gosh, this is gonna be the thing, right? They're both gonna share it, and it's- ... everything's just gonna explode." And it didn't happen. I mean, I was still happy that- Yeah ... to have them, and very proud of the episodes.
But-
Karen Laos: Yeah ...
Toby Myles: uh, but I do think that that whole reconnecting to your why, or staying connected to your why, but also reconnecting to your why, because I feel like there's- Yeah ... so much noise. Yeah. And when things feel like maybe they're not going the way that you think they should, it's easy to say, "Oh, well this, this wasn't it, so maybe I'm gonna go and, and- Yeah
try this." Oh, yeah. And that usually is not a good idea, right? Like, then you're just going off all willy-nilly with no plan and no belief in the thing. Uh- Yeah ... and you know, I, I will admit it's, this has been a rough year for me. Not necessarily- Mm-hmm ... uh, revenue-wise, but my husband's had some health concerns, and so I've been very distracted- Oh
with that, right? Mm-hmm. And I have found it really hard to kind of refocus. And uh, Christy, who we talked about in the very beginning, is my accountability buddy, and she just flat out said, "You need to remember your why." Mm. It was that simple. And I kinda let it sink in. I was like, it- she's right. Like, I have...
I just need to remember how strongly I believe in the work that I do, and how it helps- Yeah ... people tell better stories so that they conne- can connect with other human beings.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm.
Toby Myles: So I love that you, I love that you talk about that, because I do think that's really important. And I'm in year seven, so I have only three more years to go to hit that 10-year mark.
That's the great news. I know.
Karen Laos: I'm a little scared for that. Yeah, what am I at? Six, I think now. 2020. Yeah. And then just think, yeah, it's actually this month, July. And, uh, yeah, I think... I, I do think that there's another, you know, I don't know that I would call it secret, but another important thing that we all need to keep in mind is that being gratit- being grateful and content with what we have while moving forward, because I also have certainly have been guilty of this phenomenon, the whole there's no there there.
You know, you just get- Mm-hmm ... and then you're just here. Yep. And then you want to be there again. And so I also don't want to set this expectation that at the 10-year mark everything's gonna be amazing. I mean-
Toby Myles: Right ...
Karen Laos: because I think I'll be very disappointed if that is the case.
Toby Myles: Yeah. I, I- But I
Karen Laos: do... Yeah. Go ahead.
Toby Myles: I love that you point that out, because I, in May, I celebrated one year of my podcast. Oh, congrats. And I almost just glossed over it, you know? Mm. When I started it, I didn't really know what was gonna happen, if I was gonna like it, if other people were gonna like it. And by the time the year came around, we were just in this groove, and I was like, "Well, wait a minute.
Like, this, I thought about doing this for three years, and now here I am and I've put out an episode every year. I need to, like, take a minute and just appreciate how far we've come." And so we celebrated for- Yeah ... a whole week and shared-
Karen Laos: Oh ...
Toby Myles: different episodes, and especially with my podcast editor who, without her, there would be no podcast.
It would just still be an idea in my head, me avoiding it. So- Yes. I, I, so I do think, I do love that idea of just having gratitude for all the things, not just the business things. Yeah. But the ability to, to wake up and still have ideas, fun ideas, and still be able to decide like, "Okay, that's not an idea for right now, but maybe someday."
Like, still have that excitement around business and around life is- Yeah ... so important.
Karen Laos: Yes, for sure. Oh my gosh, yes. Oh, yes, it is. I just... It's so funny, too. I mean, it just depends on the day that you talk to an entrepreneur, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. How things are going.
Toby Myles: Yep.
Karen Laos: And th- that's, that the thing that I continue to learn, too, is the, the, just the s- being steady in the unsteady moments.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true, and I do think sometimes it can be day to day, right?
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm, for sure.
Toby Myles: Some days you wake up, you just feel full of energy, and things are going your way, and the next day it's like, "What was I thinking?" I'm g- I always joke I'm gonna go work at Tractor Supply down the street d- during chick season because they have all these cute little chicks, and that's just what I wanna do is go and make sure the chicks have their food, and the warming lights are turned on to them.
Aw. And then I can just go home at the end of the day and not worry about a thing.
Karen Laos: Yes. There we go. Perspective, right?
Toby Myles: Yeah, perspective. So I would love for you to share where our listeners can find you online, follow you, all the good things.
Karen Laos: Mm-hmm, sure. Well, I'm mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram, and the most central way to find me is my website, which is karenlaos.com, and that's K-A-R-E-N-L-A-O-S.com.
I also have a podcast myself. I just do solo episodes, and that is called Ignite Your Confidence. I wrote a book called Trust Your Own Voice, and I have a YouTube channel where I do video shorts pretty regularly.
Toby Myles: Amazing. Oh, this is so good. See, though, all those things you have going on, that's why I'm so appreciative that you found the time to sit down with me and talk about this- Oh, of course
uh, your, your origin story. Of course. So thank you.
Karen Laos: I also wanna say, Toby, that- Yes ... I have a free resource on my website, too, which is- Okay ... free strategies to speak up in meetings. So-
Toby Myles: Perfect ...
Karen Laos: if anybody wants that, you can go to my website, grab it.
Toby Myles: Perfect. Thank you so much.
Karen Laos: You're welcome. This was fun.