Jen Baxter shares her journey from corporate copywriting to building her own path through newsletters, Substack coaching, and AI tools; plus why becoming an “entrepreneur by default” can sometimes feel more stable than chasing the next job.
Check Out These Highlights:
Jen Baxter’s story is one of unexpected pivots and resilience. After taking a leap of faith into book publishing, she faced sudden layoffs and the uncertainty of starting over. What began as a side project with Substack turned into a coaching business helping authors and entrepreneurs launch meaningful newsletters. Along the way, Jen embraced AI tools to support clients in amplifying their voices and building systems that work.
In this episode, Jen shares the turning points that shaped her career, how she reframed setbacks into opportunities, and why she calls herself an “entrepreneur by default.” Listeners will walk away with insights on balancing stability and creativity, using technology with integrity, and building a business ecosystem that supports both freedom and security.
About Jen Baxter:
Jen Baxter is a copywriter, strategist, and newsletter coach who helps authors and entrepreneurs create intentional, reader‑focused newsletters. She blends her background in publishing with her expertise in Substack and AI tools to help clients build sustainable systems and authentic connections.
Connect with Jen:
🌐 Website: https://www.jenbaxter.com/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenbaxter/
📑 Substack: https://jenbaxter.substack.com/
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My guest today is Jen Baxter, a writer, newsletter strategist, and Substack consultant who helps authors, experts, and entrepreneurs build stronger direct relationships with their readers. After a sudden layoff from a book publishing company, Jen found herself in what she calls solopreneur by default mode, not because she had some perfectly polished plan, but because the path in front of her kept changing. In this conversation, we talk about writing, reinvention, Substack, AI, and what it means to build your own opportunities in a world where the old version of stable doesn't always feel so stable anymore. We also get into Jen's early love of literature, her time studying at Oxford, and the places and people that helped her recognize the writer she was becoming all along.
Toby Myles: Hey, Jen, welcome to the podcast.
Jen Baxter: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Toby Myles: I'm excited to have you. I want everyone listening to know that I've been trying to get this girl on my podcast for probably a year, probably close to a year. She was on my original list of people- Mm ... that I wanted to have on this show, but she's super busy.
Um, so I appreciate you making the time to do this today. Um, and I usually kick things off by sharing how we know each other, because each of my guests is totally different. But you and I met in The Shrimp Club, which is Laura Belgray's mastermind. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think we can agree that although there's always...
You always learn new things, and, and being in Laura's kind of orbit and watching her work and the way her brain works was, m- you know, worth the time that we spent there. But for me, and I think this is true for you, it's, like, the connections and the people that I now have in my life, like, forever- Mm
really. Mm. It- it's what I, what I really value the most. So, um, so that's where we met in 2020... Three, I think ... three? Three? Yeah, 2023. I think it was 23. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's crazy. Three years ago almost already. Um, yeah. Mm. So that's how we met, and we, every few months it's like, "Hey, what's going on? Let's get on a call," and that's what we do, and it's always...
I have just always loved, um, knowing you and talking to you, and, you know, we can get a little silly sometimes, but I think, um, you're somebody that I really, uh, value having you in my life. So anyway, I'm gonna shut up now. I would love for you to, um, take us back to a moment in s- in time, or maybe it's, like, more than one moment, but that you feel like really kind of like put you on the path that you're on right now.
Jen Baxter: Um, you know, actually, uh, thinking about this, and by the way, like, I have... I love our talks too. So y- you truly were one of the best parts of Shri- Shrimp Club. Aw. Thank you. Yeah. Because, you know, the, uh... Well, actually, and that's what I'll talk about because, um, so I, uh, I had a pivotal moment where after COVID, at the end of COVID, I, um, got a job offer with a book publishing company in Austin, Texas, and I was living in San Francisco, and I took a leap of faith and said, "I'm gonna do this," 'cause it was a really interesting opportunity, and was working with entrepreneurs that were writing and publishing their authority building books, and I got hired as a digital strategist to write websites and create their online presence to launch their book and start their newsletters and their LinkedIn profiles and all that stuff.
So- That was a huge leap of faith to do that. And then that was at the end of 2021, and then in 2023 they went bankrupt and laid us all off on a phone call. Oh. And I had just signed a lease in Austin. Like, I was in shared houses and kind of going back and forth just from San Francisco, 'cause it all happened quickly and I just did it, you know?
So I was spending some time working remotely in San Francisco and some time in Austin, and I was like hedging my bets a little bit. And then I got a promotion and I- a new team, and I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna just get a lease, get my own place." And I had just moved in and just gotten a promotion, and then the next week they laid us all off.
Like, they said, "Health insurance ends at midnight. Laptops are shutting down at 5:00. There's no... We ran out of money. Nothing. Bye, guys. And we're keeping 20 of you on as a skeleton crew to deliver books." And in the book publishing industry, like in that world, it was a huge thing. Like, I was shocked at how many people knew, because still that was my first copywriting job as in book publishing, and so I was not that familiar with the industry and how different Scribe was.
I'm just gonna say it. It was Scribe Media. Um, and, and it was, they, it was an interesting place and, um, it was a great opportunity in so many ways. Um, so when that happened, I hit pause, which is usually what I do when, like, the really unexpected things happen.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: And I went to Europe. I had already planned to go to Europe and work remotely for a month or two, and stay at a friend's place, uh, in- Utrecht, uh, in the Netherlands.
Mm-hmm. And we could work remotely at that point, so I was like, "All right, I'll try it." I mean, I, I really had the whole thing. I was like, "This is pretty good gig," right? Yeah. And there were signs. We all knew that there were signs things weren't right, but you always wanna stay in denial. Mm-hmm. Like, life is happening, you're making commitments.
You don't wanna pay attention to the red flags. It's gonna be okay. Um, so I just decided I'm gonna take a little time and go through that, and go to Europe, and decide do I, what am I gonna do next? Like, I'll look for another copywriting job, but is it book publishing? And I had started a Substack at Scribe because authors were asking me about Substack to market their books, and I didn't know in 2021 about it.
Mm-hmm. So I was like, okay. So I, I got on there and I realized, oh, this is a great thing for me. I actually need this. Mm-hmm. This is ... Like, I need my own email list. I had, like, a small one on Kit. Um, but I should l- figure this out and maybe have a paid newsletter on the side. And then I talked to our CEO at the time, and he was like, "I love this idea for you, and maybe we'll turn it into a service."
So I was sort of on the side starting that, and when I was in Europe, I was in touch with Laura Belgray because she had just done such a great book launch for T- um, Tough Titties, and- Mm-hmm ... and we just weren't doing that. And I thought, "Okay, that's actually how you do it." Like, we really ... If we're gonna, like, walk the talk of being, like, the disruptor in the space, we need to help- entrepreneurs really market their books.
And Laura is ... She did a great book launch, like hands down. Mm-hmm. So, um, so we were already in touch, and I would have lo- I, like, Shrimp Club wasn't quite on my radar 'cause I was working full time. But when that happened, I was like, "Oh." Yeah. "What is it that you would really like to do right now?" So- Yeah ... so she and I were emailing 'cause, you know, she, she, we had a call and she was like, "Well, think about it," you know.
"Basically, you're in." Right. So like, just, you know, just think about it. But you know, it's big, it's a commitment. So I decided during that summer that I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna give myself like six months. I'm gonna do Shrimp Club. I'm gonna work on the Substack idea," right? I'll ha- I'll develop my own and then, uh, I'll turn it into a side thing, a side business, side hustle, and then I'll look for a full-time job.
And when I started Shrimp Club, like, that was the plan. I talked to Laura about it. I think the first thing I did in the group was, like, put my webpage, a new webpage up with my portfolio and- Mm-hmm ... like, landing pages for authors or something. Like, something really traditional and like what I was doing at Scribe.
And then, um, in the course of doing Shrimp Club, you know, like it changed. Like, I have to say, like it really did. It went from me having a paid newsletter, um, to actually understanding that like, oh, what I like doing and what I'm good at is helping people start their newsletters and think through all the content strategy and copy pieces that they just don't know.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Like, they wanna get up and running and get to the writing, right? And do the f- do the fun part. They don't wanna go through the back end of the tech. And also thinking through like, okay, what's in it for my reader? You know, all those things that we talk about all the time, right? Yeah. Like, what's the value prop?
You know, like, who is my ideal reader? What is it? What are my themes? What am I writing about? And th- that's stuff that I took for granted. Mm-hmm. And I realized that like ... A- and I kind of realized it through you guys and Laura because, like, she would just, she told friends who were starting Substacks and who needed help because they didn't know what they were doing.
Mm-hmm. Like, "Oh, there's somebody in Shrimp Club doing it." And so that was sort of the first time that I really started talking about it in a way of h- how ... Explaining to people how you actually think through setting something up that ha- you know, that has legs for a year. Yeah. You could change everything in a year, but like you actually are writing something with intention that's a valuable newsletter.
It's not just like an online journal or- Mm-hmm ... you know, another blog or something like that. So I started that there. And then, um, I just kept doing that- Because it, it was working, it just wasn't what I th- originally thought it would be. Yeah. I didn't even do the paid newsletter part of it. I just kept everything free because actually where I kept increasing my price was doing these one-on-one sessions with people, and then d- giving talks, helping them s- get set up and understand Substack.
Mm-hmm. And then Substack really opened up, right? And really started changing. Yeah. And I was like, "Huh. Okay." And then AI really took off, and so there I was at this intersection of going through job interviews and applying for jobs, and people were starting to ask, "So how do you use AI in your process?" And it was such an interesting time because especially coming out of Laura's mastermind in 2023- Mm-hmm
AI was not ... It was like, "No."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: We, we are copywriters. Exactly. We do not, we do not use ChatGPT. Mm-hmm. She does not wanna see ... Do not submit anything. Yeah. She can smell it a while away. Yeah. Right? Like, do not do it.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: But at the same time, though, as I got deeper into maybe this companies that, like, were a better fit for me because either they're, they were entrepreneurs who were coaches too, and they had a book, right?
So, like, they had all the components of the things I was working on at Scribe. Um, they all wanted to know. Like, and they wanted to know I could talk about it intelligently.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Not
Jen Baxter: that I was using it as a crutch, but that, like, I was understanding how to m- use my tools. Yep. And so then I was like, "Oh my God, this is like everything is changing."
Like, everything is changing.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: So I, I kind of doubled down on the, the newsletter coaching, and I, you know, I w- I, I think that this is kind of an interesting thing for us to talk about. I would love to know your take on this. It's been three years, right? So at this point now, the Substack thing got big enough that it was m- m- it was, like, the side income that I wanted, that I thought I'd get from a paid newsletter.
Mm-hmm. But not enough to support me, right?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: The co- copywriting, I mean, it's just a whole different thing right now. It's ... I mean, it's always ... It's never been stable, quote, unquote, but, like- Right ... there have been a lot of jobs, and usually it's, you know, y- you can get a job. Mm-hmm. Now it's really changing, and so I find myself in this position now where, um, I'm an en- I almost feel like I'm an entrepreneur by default.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: And it, uh, it's kind of a thing. Like, I did not... Uh, like I like this, I like being in-house. I like the steady paycheck. I like health insurance. Yeah. I love my vacations.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. I love
Jen Baxter: working remotely, and I love having team members, one, to brainstorm with and bounce ideas off of, but two, to like cover my bases when I go on vacation, right?
Yeah, yeah. So I'm not one of these like, "I saw it, and I'm just gonna go for it," and- ... you know, I was like, "Oh, I don't know." But truly, like looking at the landscape of the full-time job in 2024, that didn't feel great either.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: And I just was talking to somebody about this two weeks ago. I'm like, you know, again, like I'm always
I did, I did wanna set myself up with the Substack so that I had the flexibility to go in-house and also something to fall back on, uh, during those in-between times so that I wasn't so beholden to being- Mm-hmm ... in a toxic environment and not being able- Sure ... to get out, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, I had kind of in a way created my own balance, my own ecosystem.
So that was intentional. But now I kind of find myself in this place where it's almost like entrepreneur by default because right now it's making more sense in year three to keep this going because now I'm doing AI tools for authors.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Because Claude is completely different than it was in 2023.
Yeah, yep. And I showed a couple people in Trump Club how to use Claude back then for their emails. Mm-hmm. Don't tell Laura. Yeah. Laura, if you listen to this, I'm so sorry, but
Toby Myles: I
Jen Baxter: did.
Toby Myles: I'm pretty sure she's not listening.
Jen Baxter: But I just ... They needed help, and they were struggling. Yeah. And like I could just show them, so I did.
Well, at this stage now I have, uh, you know, clients who they have a body of work. Like, they've written the book, they've written tons of articles. A lot of them have podcast transcripts. They have a lot of content that they've spent years, and a point of view, right? Like, this is their body of work. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
So I can take their body of work and train a Claude project on that and give them a voice guide and give it ... And train it on all those copywriting principles to do things that they would hire me to do. Mm-hmm. And so I've pretty much created a tool for them that says, I'm gonna ... This is a one-time thing, and then you can hire me to like walk you through it over the years.
Mm-hmm. But like you don't have to hire me to do your emails. You don't have to hire me to do all this content. Yeah. Uh, you just ... And so, and it's, it seems to be working 'cause I'm at an inflection point like I was with Substack-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm ...
Jen Baxter: where people's, uh, PR people see it on my website when we have like a, a coffee chat.
Mm-hmm. And I didn't call them for that. I was reaching out for Substack thinking, "Okay, let's ... L- like I wanna widen my network for newsletters," 'cause I- Feel like what I've developed for myself that I enjoy the most are, are nonfiction author newsletters. Mm-hmm. And everybody needs an email list. Yeah. Like, if there, if you're an author and you're not thinking like an entrepreneur, and you're not understanding that you really do have to market your work and promote- Right
yourself in a way that feels good to you, and has, and build genuine audience connection, no publisher is doing it for you today. It's not happening.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. You're
Jen Baxter: not living in the real world.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: And so I'm happy to help bridge that gap for you. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And if I have to create a tool to do it, I'm happy to do that right now- Mm-hmm
'cause that's teaching me and giving you something valuable. But I can also coach you through that, the beginning of that process very easily. Like, I did that for a lot of- Mm-hmm ... successful authors. So- Mm-hmm ... y- I find myself at this point where, like, it's almost more stable to do this for myself right now- Mm-hmm,
Toby Myles: yeah
Jen Baxter: with the way the economy and the world is than it is to spend all that time and energy looking for a job again. So I, I, um, started this coaching, this business and money coaching with Belinda Rosenblum. Shout out to Belinda, Cashflow CEO. She's really lovely, and I started last September with, like, just a really low ticket offer she did about creating offers and getting your money strategy in- together.
Mm-hmm. And it was during that that she was like, "You could do this."
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. She's
Jen Baxter: like, "You can replace your salary. Like, you could easily in a year at this stage replace your Scribe salary, and then probably the year after make more." Yeah. And I'm like, "Really?" She's like, "Yeah, yeah. You can." She's like, "What if we just agree, give it a year to do this?"
Mm-hmm. "And then, then, and you just won't look for a job. You're gonna go all in, and then if you don't like it and you don't want to, you can look for a job after that." Mm-hmm. So last September I was like, "Okay. All right." And now, right, now we're in April, I mean, this is how fast the world is changing, and I'm, like, having this conversation with you now, and then with somebody two weeks ago.
I'm like, I almost feel like I'm more stable creating my own thing right now.
Toby Myles: Yeah. It's weird. Yeah. I, I think that, I know that you and I at different points several years now have touched base on what do you think about AI? And I think we had- Mm-hmm ... an actual conversa- I think we actually got on a call specifically to talk about that, 'cause we're both copywriters.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and I'm pretty sure we both at one point were like, like you said, like, never. Like, I don't need it. I'm f- I know how to write. Like, I don't need it, right? Um, but then f- It's going so fast, and there's so many things that you can do, and everybody is using it. Everyone is using it. I don't care what people say, everyone is using it in some way, shape, or form.
I have people come to me and sheepishly admit that they're using it because they know that I'm a copywriter. I'm like, "It's fine. You don't have to... It's not a secret. You don't have to be a secret." Right. But let's talk, talk about how you can use it, but not just copy and paste the output. Like, that's the wrong way to use it.
Right. Yeah. Um, and like what you talked about, training it on someone's actual voice and actual content- Yeah ... that is the way to use it, and it just helps you move more quickly, um, but still with integrity. And I, using my strategy,
Jen Baxter: yeah, my strategy background- Yeah ... to train it so that it gets a quality output that then they just revise.
Mm-hmm. It's not, like, blindly using it badly. I mean, I think that's, you know, to be honest- Yeah ... like, Toby, I think it was the first few clients, maybe one or two, where I was like, "Hey, this guy's totally using ChatGPT badly." Yeah. Like, I need to talk with him. Yeah. And then I was like, "You know, I should just create a tool for you.
I could do that so easily right now." Mm-hmm. "And I wanna learn, and you'll use it well." Mm-hmm. Like, then you'll actually, you know- Yeah ... it'll do what it's supposed to do with your body of work.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. For sure, yeah. I do something similar inside my community. So my course is the Core Eight Story Hub, and, and inside the community, uh, women write, they excavate their own stories from their business, you know, behind the scenes, their process, their milestones, their origin story, and they write each one of those stories, um, themselves, but then they get some help from, uh, custom AI tools to, you know, ask them questions about, you know, some of these topics, some of these parts of their story that maybe they didn't think of.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm s- I'm so proud of the way that that works for my members because they come back and they say, "Wow," like, "this really helped me in the process." Like, "I'm not a writer, and just by programming these tools to ask me these questions, it really made me think of things in a different way that I hadn't thought of."
And so I think, like, that's another piece of it, right? It's, um, it's not just, you know- used for copywriting or, or content writing. There are other ways to use the tool, tools I should say, um, that are actually, like, pretty cool I think.
Jen Baxter: That's right. We had that call where you told me about Amy, and then I joined Amy's membership.
Toby Myles: Right. That's right.
Jen Baxter: That's right. Yes. And she, and she's all about systems- Mm-hmm ... and she uses A- I mean, I learned so much from her- Mm-hmm ... about, I mean, I think sh- that, that her membership and her group really made me feel like, okay, maybe I can do this on my own because I can, I am understanding how to use AI to create the systems that I didn't- Yeah
have in place before. Yeah. And that's gonna make things easier, and, and that's beyond the writing and the content.
Toby Myles: Absolutely. Like,
Jen Baxter: that's just my own solopreneur business. Yeah. Where, like, I'm not at the stage where I can hire a VA yet, but I'm getting there. Yeah. But actually, I, I have, I figured out with Amy, like, how to use enough of the tools to almost be my VA.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. We, yeah, shout out to Amy 'cause s- same for me. Yeah. That was really- Yeah ... she really opened my eyes to using, um, ChatGPT in a whole different way. Yeah. And then I was like, "Wow, this is pretty cool." Um- Yeah ... and then, you know, that was kinda like a springboard for me, and I think it was for you too.
Well, if I could do this- Yeah ... like, now you're thinking about all these other ways that you can use it. Yeah. And that was why I built the tools inside my course, for that exact reason. Yeah. It was like, well, I have this content- Yeah ... but wouldn't it be cool if I had, you know, a m- a, a custom GPT to go with each module?
Like, that would be super cool. Yeah. And so, you know, I built those. And so, and like you, like, I wanted to do it. I wanted to learn how to do it, which- Yeah ... that's saying something in and of itself because I'm not a techy girl at all. Um, I usually get, like, a stomachache when it comes to anything tech-related.
Um, but it was fun. It was really fun. Yeah. And there are, I'm building other things now. I'm also, like you, using Claude, which I absolutely love. Um, so I, I just, it's funny because I remember, um, you know, you were a copywriter. You were v- you know, very much, like, I think the first person I knew who really talked about Substack, which was so foreign to me at the time, and still is to some extent.
But I also remember just feeling like, you know, when we would get on calls and you'd say, "Yeah, but I, I'm doing this, but I'm still looking for a job," and I was like, "No, why are you looking for a job?" You know? I just, I think there's this, this sort of like, um, if you're an entrepreneur, like, you're pulling for everybody else to, like, make it, too, right?
And I just felt like no, don't go get a job. You're good at this. So I think it's funny that you r- refer to that as, like, a default entrepreneur or maybe, you know- accidental I guess You know? I sort
Jen Baxter: of, I like, I feel that way, and I feel like I actually got that phrase from, um, a writer who, uh, just put it on LinkedIn, like we're connected, uh, on Substack, and we've met, and we have like similar writing friends Mm-hmm And she was like, "I'm thinking about this article about like how there's so many solopreneurs out there that in this economy, do you feel like you're like a default entrepreneur?"
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. And I was
Jen Baxter: like, "I love that." Like, let me think about that. I wrote her back and I'm like, "Let m- I'm gonna think about that, actually." Right? 'Cause- Yeah ... you know, like is that ... And it's so funny that you say that too, because you weren't the first person in that Substack like figuring it all out. I call it like the mess or the
But we can call it a journey if we might wanna make it look good Like in the middle of my mess, right? Yes. And it was like, oh, no, I had like a couple other people who I really value their opinion. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm Who ... And they were like, "Oh, I'd love to see you do this," you know? And- Yeah ... and sometimes it was people I didn't know who I hired to give me like, um, like an analysis of kind of like m- all my contact profiles, right?
Like what I do for people, and then have it geared towards getting a job and, and, um, you know, recruiters. Mm-hmm. And one of them said, "Okay, so I know you want this for recruiters. I just wanna say I'm looking at your Substack , and like good on you. And if you wanted to go that way, like I might cheer you on."
But, but I know that- Yeah ... you're, that's not what you're asking for- Yeah ... in this call." Right. Right. And I was like, "Oh, man." Yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do- You know? I do totally get your motivation for doing it. Like you said, you know, I like health insurance, which that just makes me laugh because, I mean, obviously, you know, don't we all?
But like that's sometimes there's just like basic survival- Yeah ... needs that we all have, right? Yeah. Food, shelter-
Jen Baxter: Paid vacation. I like the spa, you guys. Yeah. I like getting my hair colored, and I like people to cover for me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just have to say it. Like, after college I was not, I never wanted to be the starving writer.
I was like- Yeah ... "No, no, no. That's not gonna work for me.
Toby Myles: I'm not gonna do my best work." Right, right. Well, let's just put this out there on the airwaves. I will cover for you. Keep doing what you're doing, and I will be your team, and when you wanna go on vacation, call me up and say, "Look, can you, like, cover for me?"
Well,
Jen Baxter: actually, you're the person I feel who gives me my best next steps, to be honest with you. Because I call you, and then I end up in Amy's membership- ... 'cause that was new, and I'm like, "Okay, that was a great next step." And then you know what the, the, uh, the next one was? We, on our last call before that we talked about the podcast, but actually the person that you worked with to train your VA.
Mm-hmm. And I have, I have not forgotten, Toby, and when I'm ready, I am gonna invest in that. Yeah, yeah. And I've told a couple friends of mine who are now, like, doing the solopreneur thing. They're like, "Well, maybe I won't get a job. Maybe I'll-" Mm-hmm ... "I've got this idea." And I, and we were talking about it, and I told them about that, and one person was like, "God, that's a brilliant idea."
Yeah. Like, we all need that help. Yep. And I'm like, you know, I think I'm actually gonna save and invest, and, like, make that investment when I'm ready.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. It was the best investment that I made. Um, I mean, we can say it. It's Chris Ward. She's been on my podcast. She's amazing, um- Yeah ... at what she does, and she found, hired, and trained my VA, who is still with me today, a year later.
And that is saying something- Yeah ... 'cause I've had VAs before that just did not work out, and I share the blame because I was not a good leader. Um, and that's one- Mm ... of the things that Chris also does, is she trains the leader, not just- That's- ... the VA ... that's
Jen Baxter: the best part. Yeah. To me, that's the most compelling part of what she does, is she's gonna train me-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm
Jen Baxter: to, how to, to talk to them and to be clear- Yeah ... about what I need and how to do it. Yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Because I realized that, um, you know, you can't just get frustrated with someone and think that they should just know how to do things the way that you want to do them. You have to put the systems in place.
You have to communicate regularly. You know, you don't just throw things at them. All the things that I had done wrong in previous relationships. So, um, yeah. When you are ready to make that investment, I know it's, you, it's, you're gonna be like, "Why did I wait so long to do it?" So, um, I want to... I'm curious, because I don't think I know this.
When you were, um, little Jen, young Jen, young girl Jen, did you want to be a writer then? Did you already know? Like, is that something that's been with you for forever? Mm. Such an interesting question.
Jen Baxter: Um, so I was told, my mom would tell me in high school, "Oh, you should be a writer." Like, and I didn't really believe her, and to be honest, I didn't really trust her taste.
I mean, God bless her, she's not with us anymore. But like, I was like, "Yeah, okay, whatever." And then, but I, I did like writing. And then, I mean, now it's gonna sound a little silly, but like I, um... Long story short, I did my undergraduate at Oxford for, in English lit. I know, I know. And, and I'm actually, full disclosure, so I didn't matriculate or graduate from Oxford University.
I, I think the universe... I mean, it sort of, the opportunity found me. So I, in a way it is, it has always kind of called to me. Um, I ended up at a London university program at an Oxford college that a- was, it was their last year they were letting in London students. I fit the bill perfectly. I was a nice American kid, and I had the money to pay, which was half of what it would've been even going to a state school in the US.
Wow. Right? It was so, it was so dirt cheap in the '80s that like I look at it now and I'm like, "That was the smartest thing I ever did." Mm-hmm. And, uh, it was just a big leap. And like I, I was doing a year... Like everybody has a, everybody in Europe does a gap year. Most people in the US, now they do gap years, but back then nobody knew what it was.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: I had neighbors in San Francisco. Their daughter had done an inter- an IB program, like a gap year at a private college in Oxford. And my mom and I were at odds, and the only thing in school I was really good at was English lit, history, right, the arts. And so our neighbor said, "You know what? Send Jennifer.
We did this for Amy. Just send her to this, like I- this college for a year. We know like the dean of the art school. Uh, she'll mature a little bit. You guys will get along better. And from that she can apply to the schools that you want her to go to in the US." 'Cause it was like a pretentious... It was contentious.
The whole thing was not a great scene at home.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: And so, and these neighbors really were like the people, you know? Like, I would always hide in their family. They had five kids, and I was always over there trying to be one of them. So, so I went, right, so I went and did this thinking it was gonna be a year, and I had applied to the schools my mom wanted me to go to.
And um, I ended up taking a course, uh, like a lit course at the college that I went to, and it was an Oxford college. And there was a dean who was very flamboyant, and he was very eccentric, and I had a, my, my tutorial was with him. Back then we had tutorials. And he pulled me aside one afternoon, and we had this talk on a bench in the quad.
And he said, "So have you ever thought about applying here?" And I was like, "No, I could never get in here." "I would... Are you kidding? I gotta go back to San Francisco and apply- Yeah ... to these colleges no one wants me to go
Toby Myles: to."
Jen Baxter: Mm-hmm. And he said, "Well, you're a pretty good writer. Like, I actually think you could do it."
And I was like, "Oh, uh, but I, I could never get in." And he goes, "Well, there is... We do have a way. Like, we have this London University degree. It's not nearly as hard to get into. You probably could do it. We're- this is the last year we're offering it, because then we're actually going to f- turn over and be a full university, uh, Oxford University College, right?"
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. "
Jen Baxter: And, uh, I think you should try." And he's... And I mean, I'll say this on the podcast, but, like, these words have stuck with me for my whole life, 'cause his question was, "The real question is, do you have the money? Like, do your parents have the money to send you here, and would they do it?" And I said- Oh
"Yeah, I think so." And he goes, "Well, if I were you, I'd take the money and run." And I was like, "Oh." Oh, my gosh.
I was like, "All right." So I d- I applied. I didn't tell my mom. I did... Like, I pretty much did it all on my own. I mean, the application fee was, like, 25 pounds. Mm-hmm. I was already there at the college taking a tutorial. I was already in Oxford. I mean, I had so many things going for me now that I look back.
Yeah. The fees to them were exactly what they needed, and to us it was like nothing, 'cause the- Yeah ... exchange rate was amazing.
Toby Myles: Mm. Right?
Jen Baxter: Like- Mm-hmm ... state schools were expensive. Private c- colleges, which is where I would've gone to-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm ... was
Jen Baxter: gonna be triple.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: So it was nothing. And I had to write some essays.
I did my interview, so I was there, and I didn't tell her until all that was done, and then I went home. And then... And I also applied to the places she wanted me to go, and then I told her, and she was not that happy. So don't think, like... I didn't wanna tell this story like, "I went to Oxford." No.
Toby Myles: But I know, but you did, so.
I... But I did.
Jen Baxter: And it was, like, the best experience. I, I mean, it was more than the best experience. And so then after that, through connections, um, I did a y- internship at a human rights magazine in London- Like they paid, they got me a visa for a year and paid my transportation. But one of, um, the s- the executive director that stepped in the year I was interning, um, was actually the founder of a women's, uh, press.
Like one of the most- Mm. Oh, and I, I didn't know, understand at the time what it, what it was, but now I know. So she and her, her business partner in the '70s founded a women's press called Virago Press. Mm-hmm. And it still exists today, but in the ei- '70s and '80s it was a really big deal in the UK. Mm-hmm.
Because, um, most of the big traditional publishers had stopped reprinting, um, women's literature when the date expired. So like Jane Austen. I mean, like the classics. Oh, okay. Like, um, uh, right? So they weren't- Yeah ... reprinting them.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah.
Jen Baxter: And these two women l- were feminists and were working- Mm ... in London publishing houses, right?
Mm-hmm. And were like, "This is awful."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: Because all the men, uh, all the people making decisions were men.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: And so they got together and they started their own publishing house, and it was really just for women's imprints.
Toby Myles: Wow.
Jen Baxter: It was like a big deal. I know, and I didn't even understand. Yeah, sure. And so I was their VA, you know?
Toby Myles: Okay.
Jen Baxter: Like, like I did like the events. Like I got my friends from college who were, some of them were still unemployed or working at charities like I was, 'cause that was- Yeah ... the sort of thing we, none of us knew what we were doing. Yeah. Um, to come in and volunteer. And it, it, in the back, the most interesting part was, so we published mostly...
I mean, it's interesting for where we are today in this country. So the whole magazine was based on the found- uh, on, it was called Index on Censorship, and it was about reaching out to the Eastern Bloc countries. It was started by Vaclav Havel and a whole s- basically group of artists and intellectuals to reach out to those countries that were being censored by their government, journalists, artists, and have- Wow
a magazine that published their work.
Toby Myles: Wow. That's so ahead of its time.
Jen Baxter: I met Salman Rushdie. I m- I mean, I met- Oh my gosh ... like I met, like people. Wow. Like I, 'cause I d- 'cause I was the intern i, i- organizing the main event, the fundraising event. And so they all were... I mean, every literary person in London was involved in this charity.
So it was a charity, and it, they published a magazine every quarter. Mm-hmm. And s- and then I got my friends, some of my friends who actually are still involved today- Mm ... um, in, because in the back of the magazine, we would list all of the journalists and writers and artists who were imprisoned by their government for their work from the last time the magazine came out.
Wow. And so we had little paragraphs-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Jen Baxter: about them. Wow. I mean, it kind of gives me chills right now talking about it- Yeah ... 'cause like- Yeah,
Toby Myles: yeah
Jen Baxter: It was real. And I, um... And so that was, I mean, to me, like, that's probably really what I was supposed to be doing,
Toby Myles: you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: But, I mean, and I think I have a very common story that my mother and par- they had other ideas about how they saw me as a person and what they wanted me to do.
Yeah. And that was not it- Yeah ... quite frankly. I mean, she talked a good game about- Mm-hmm ... "Oh, I'm so wonderful letting you do this." Oh, yeah. But she sort of treated it like it was my little jaunt instead of- Oh ... that I was- Right ... actually finding my path.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. It's just a phase. She'll- Mm-hmm ... grow out of it, and then she'll do something serious.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Or, you know- Yeah ... she'll do something that works for me. Well,
Toby Myles: yeah.
Jen Baxter: That's hilarious. But it belonged. Yeah. So, I mean, so after that year, I did. I mean, and also I did see that, like, I did understand, 'cause I went back to San Francisco. I started to- I applied to every book publishing and sort of publishing job that I could- Mm-hmm
'cause I knew I had that. I mean, you know, Oxford, we're, we're, we're a little bit strategic back then. Mm-hmm. I knew I didn't wanna go into academics, although I loved it there. But, like, you know, academics were not necessarily ever gonna be my strong thing. Yeah. You know, the funniest thing about that, I was- I've been thinking about this a lot lately, if I really had my druthers back then and had, like, a life where, like, you could do whatever you want, don't worry, you know, just follow your bliss-
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm
which is
Jen Baxter: not, which is not what was happening in my world at the time. Um, I had a, um, I had a tutor. We called them tutors back then, right? But the... I had a PhD student who I was studying probably the Victorian era with. Mm-hmm. She was at St. Hilda's College. I looked up to her so much. She was sort of everything I wanted to be.
She even looked like how I wanted to look. And she was American, right? She was doing her PhD on, like, Victorian literature, and she was a, she rowed crew, and they got a, an oar, and she had this great little place, and it was really cool. Mm-hmm. And she was the most supportive person I, I met in that time.
She was really one of those people that m- sort of made me see that, like, oh, okay, I have, I, I have some ideas here. Yeah. I have some talent here. Yeah. And so we talked a lot as I was doing my exams and graduating about what was next. And I said, "I don't know, I've always... I just, I kinda love romances. And, like, I love, like, Merchant Ivory films and stuff."
And she's like, "Oh my God, you should totally do that." Mm-hmm. She's like, "Actually, I do that on the side with some friends. Like, you should just try it." And I was like, "Oh, but that's silly." And the funny thing is, that would've been the, a great time to try to do that, and I have other friends that do that now on the side.
Mm-hmm. They write Harlequin books.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: And it makes me think, oh, wow, like, I was in such, I was in such a moment of like- life showing me that's who I was. It was like life picked me- Yeah ... in a way, and, and put me- Yeah ... somewhere and said, "No, no, it's this."
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: Yeah. Right? And then you do the internal battle with- Mm-hmm
the way that you're conditioned and the way that you're raised, and, and, and the feeling of belonging, right? Yeah. Like, for whatever reason, those were my people. Like, I... From the minute I set foot in that place, it wasn't about my grades or how smart I was. Like, I had lived there before. Mm-hmm. I knew I had been there before.
Mm-hmm. Like, nobody... I didn't ever say that to anyone, but, like, I knew it.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: It was so familiar to me, right?
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: But then... And more familiar and more comfortable for me than being in the world I was raised in in San Francisco, and that was a real internal battle.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Right? 'Cause we do a lot of work in our 20s to fit in and belong.
Yes.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah. But- Your 20s are, like, you're trying to figure it out, you know? Yeah. I think... I remember thinking in my 20s I had it all figured out. I mean, I got married to my first husband when I was 23. Mm. I was like, "I know who I am. I know what I want. I, I'm mature," you know, whatever. And I, I think I was mature for my age, but- Mm-hmm
I did not know crap about myself at all. Yeah, yeah. And it is a big reason why my marriage... Like, he was a great guy. He was a great... He is a great guy, great father to my kids, but I didn't know myself. Yeah. And for that reason, um, I don't really wanna say I outgrew him, but I outgrew who I thought I was at that time, and it just didn't work anymore.
Yeah. But, but back then, I just was like, "Yeah, I, I'm fine. I..." You know? It's like, no, like, your 20s, so much, so many things about just learning about yourself go on from that, you know, from 20 to 30, I think.
Jen Baxter: I think so too. I mean, I think you hit it. Like, I think that's the biggest thing. And it's funny, when I look online about, you know, I mean, education in this country is i- in such a bad place, right?
Mm. So... And it's so expensive. It's, it's definitely not worth going into debt for. However, I, I do think, like, those are the first steps that people get to leave home- Yeah ... and experiment with who they are. Yep. And if we, if we got that o- if they cut that away from kids, that's a developmental step. I mean, that changed my life.
Yeah. It changed how I view myself. I had to really look at, well, what's, what's actually stronger, like, the way that I see myself and the person I f- feel when I'm there with those people or the person that my parents tell me I am?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Right? Like- Yeah ... and those two people are at odds with each other.
Those are very different characters. Like, if we had to do, put it in a novel or in a- Mm-hmm ... Netflix series, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Like, those are different characters. Yeah. And who do you identify with more, and then who do you lean into more when you feel scared and need a sense of saf- of security?
Toby Myles: Yeah. I think it's interesting what you said about how comfortable you felt there, like those are your- Yeah
people versus how you felt at home or San Francisco. And but did you know that back then? Was that very clear, or is it only looking back now? Because I have experienced that myself, where I know where I fit. I know who my people are. I'm an artist. I'm a writer. I, I'm a creative. I feel like totally myself around other creatives.
Um, and I've known it my entire life. I haven't always... Um, it hasn't stopped me from trying to fit in other places. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But I have always known it at, at my core my entire life. So I'm wondering, like, did you know it then, or is it n- just looking back now that you see, like, "Oh, yeah," like, "I totally was...
That was where I belonged"?
Jen Baxter: So it's interesting. Okay, so I would have a different answer to that, right? Like, I- I've done a lot of soul-searching about this, but, like, I think that I took on this identity of I'm gonna be a writer 'cause I wanted to get away from home- Mm-hmm ... and that was the thing that got me there.
Mm-hmm. A few other people told me, "Oh, yeah, yeah. No, you're good. You could do this," right? Mm-hmm. So I just said, "Great. Get me out. Let's, let's go." Yeah. But envi- but location, geography-wise, when I landed in Heathrow, and I had never been there before, and I mean, I was, like, a 19-year-old kid- Mm-hmm ... I went on my own.
My mom, nobody went with me. I knew when I got there, I was home. Mm. I remember walking through the airport and going to customs and being like, "Oh, I made it home." Wow. I remember sitting in the library at my college, at Manchester College, a couple nights, like, late, being the only one with, and all the sh- the racks, the shelves of books, and being like, "I've been here before.
I know it." Mm-hmm. "I know I've been here before." Mm-hmm. And I've had that feeling in places since then. I've never had it in San Francisco, but I've had it in Bali. I've been in Bali. I spent three years in Bali, and I swear to you, in the first couple months, I was like, "I know this feeling." Wow. "I've been here before."
And then most recently, during those, that time after the job, before I s- we started a strip club, I went to the Netherlands, right? To stay with this friend, and then I went back to London- Mm-hmm ... to see old friends from college and reconnect with them. Mm-hmm. And I went to Edinburgh for the first time.
I've always wanted- Mm ... to go to Edinburgh. Mm-hmm. Same. It's kind of a regret that, like, I didn't spend more time there or pl- I mean, if I had my druthers after college, I would've applied for a degree in Scotland for sure. Yeah,
Toby Myles: yeah.
Jen Baxter: Love it there. So went to Edinburgh for the first time, and, like, I'm not even kidding, Toby, on the Royal Mile, I've, I've been...
I've done it. I've been there. I know that street. I, I mean, I went on hikes, and I was like, "I know this place." Wow. And I, I, I have that, I have that feeling in my cells about certain geography and locations more sometimes than I have about, like, I'm a writer, I'm a creative, right? Mm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Like, I, I, I almost question that, 'cause people have told me that for so long.
And- Mm-hmm ... and also, our world, like, backs that up a little bit, so I'm like, "Okay, I guess I am," right? Yeah. And I ha- and I have moments where I'm like, "No, I know I've done this, like- Yeah ... several lifetimes," right? Right. But not quite to the degree that I've had when I land in certain places, and I feel- Mm-hmm
them in my cells.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. No, that's, I... That's amazing. I'm, like, getting goosebumps. A- a- and I'm also sitting here thinking, like, "When is Jen gonna write her book?" 'Cause I, I need to read this book. It makes sense, like, this life, like, all these things, right? So, um- So I guess, I mean, this is the point in the show where I usually say, like, life as an entrepreneur is not easy, and we have already talked about that.
Like, you've been trying really hard not to be an entrepreneur. And I usually ask, like, what is it that keeps you going in those, in those difficult moments? But it's, it's a different question with you because w- when I usually ask that question, it's... My guests are... Like, they want this. They want to keep going, right?
Yeah. Yeah. It is. Um, I mean, would you still- Hmm ... if somebody called you up today with what you think is your dream job, would you... Like, you a year ago would jump on it, but, like, you today- Hmm ... would you still jump on it? Or would you be like- Who's this? ... "Oh, I don't know. Maybe I like this entrepreneur thing"?
Jen Baxter: Yeah. So I think, I think that my mindset is different because I would say it would be about the people more than about the work.
Toby Myles: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Right? Like, if I had the opportunity to work with people who I felt like, "Wow, this feels so interesting"-
Toby Myles: Yeah ...
Jen Baxter: I would take it. The reason I would hesitate now, though, and the reason...
And the thing I think that does keep me going, and coming back to this, is that I did decide at some point, like, "Okay, I, I need to do the writing thing." Like, it just that I, like, like I felt that inside a few times. Mm-hmm. And I need to do it in a way where I have enough financial stability so that when I wanna quit, right, I'm not starving and I'm not- Mm-hmm
you know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... so I s- do see, like... I, I've always approached it as- I need to have enough space and time to do my own thing, but I didn't... It takes a while to figure out what your thing is. Yeah. And I, I may think that maybe that messy part is where I m- get scared and want, like, a stable full-time job, right?
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Like, what am I writing about, and d- does anybody even care? And like- Yeah ... what, what are we doing? Like, are we just making more words on the internet? Like- Yeah ... a book? We, like, Target needs another book by Jen Baxter. You know? Like, I have these moments. I'm like- Mm-hmm ... come on, people, right?
Mm-hmm. But then I also have these moments where I look at our world and I'm like, "Well, no, at least I'm, I'm helping the people and I'm working with the people that I really wanna work with." Yeah. So I wanna always keep that going- Mm-hmm ... because I feel like actually that's part of the life adventure.
It's not necessarily the entrepreneur adventure, it's the life adventure.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm. And the
Jen Baxter: life adventure will sometimes mean that, like, I, for whatever reason in life, I need that flexibility, that I know I can rely on my wits and my writing and my business skills now that I have them, and I'm getting them stronger.
Mm-hmm. Right? To do that and support myself and do the things that I wanna do. And then there will be other opportunities where I'll be like, "Ooh, maybe it's time to buy a house. This looks good." Yeah, yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah, for sure.
Jen Baxter: And I- And I feel like that's actually the balance that works for me. And, and it's scare- Yeah
it, like, it's been hard to figure that out.
Toby Myles: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, it sounds like you've got, um, just more stability now so that, um- Mm-hmm ... m- maybe it's a little less stressful. I know you've gone through some periods recently where you're super busy, and that can be stres- stressful. Like, how am I gonna- Totally
get all this done? Yeah. Um, but also- On
Jen Baxter: my own with, like, no VA- Yes ... except for Clyde. Exactly.
Toby Myles: You know? Exactly, yeah. And s- but yeah, but being in that position to be able to consider an opportunity that came along because it felt like something like, "Yeah, I really wanna do this," is kind of a nice spot to be in, I think.
Jen Baxter: I think so too, and I actually think, to be honest with you, the answer to that question really in, like, two sentences is I'm very grateful to be at a place where I believe I can make my opportunities. Yeah. Whether that's working for somebody else or working for myself. Yeah. Like, I really am grateful that today I believe, "Okay, actually I get it.
I can actually- Yeah ... make these opportunities."
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that- And that's why they
Jen Baxter: feel so unique to people. Mm-hmm. 'Cause they don't realize, like, what I put in behind the scenes- Mm-hmm ... to actually n- understand how to carve out a little bit of my own unique opportunity.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Baxter: So- For sure
you know, rather than having to fit into somebody else's box.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Exactly. You c- you kinda- There's a bit of
Jen Baxter: that when you work for somebody else, but not- Yeah. Yeah, for sure ... 180% of it.
Toby Myles: Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. So this has been amazing, as I knew it would. Um, and I feel like we could keep going as we do when we hop- We do
on a call. It's like, oh, like an hour just flew by. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, maybe there's gonna be a part two at some point- Mm ... and we're gonna keep going with this conversation. But for now, I would love for you to, um, just, you know, if s- if ... A couple things. If there's anyone listening who is thinking about going out on their own, um- Mm
doing the writing thing- Mm ... since that's what we both know, what advice would you give them at this point? And it can be, like, whatever you think it is, and maybe it ties into AI, or maybe it doesn't. I would love to know your thoughts.
Jen Baxter: Oh, yeah. I think, I think about this a lot lately 'cause it's changing so much.
Like, if you wanna write, it doesn't matter if it's books or online, a newsletter. Like, you need to treat it like a business.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: You need to have that mindset. You don't have to, like, be a founder, right? You don't have to be your own CEO, but you have to think about it like a business and you need some business skills.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: Because that's how it lasts.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: And so gone are the days of freelance journalists. It doesn't exist anymore. It's not happening.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: Right? You're not gonna make enough to pay your rent by starting a paid Substack.
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: However, you can have an ecosystem that allows you to do creative work if you think of it like, like a business, and that's where, why so many of us are entrepreneurs.
Right. And I, you know, I wouldn't l- I wouldn't encourage anyone to go out and do that until they had that mindset.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Oh, that's- And that means you have to- ... such good advice ...
Jen Baxter: yeah, you have to invest in yourself, and you have to invest- Yeah ... you have to know what skills you don't have- Mm-hmm ... and not be afraid to invest in that.
And I think Shrimp Club was the first thing, 'cause, like, I was even staying with a writing friend of mine who, she's a copywriter. She has a full-time job as a copywriter, and she writes romance novels- Mm-hmm ... like, totally, right? And we met while we were traveling. And she ... I was, like, going back and forth about Shrimp Club, and she was like, "Yikes, that's expensive.
Are you really gonna do that?" And I remember just thinking, "I know, but I gotta ... Becky, like, I gotta invest in myself, otherwise I'm not really taking it seriously."
Toby Myles: Mm-hmm.
Jen Baxter: And I think that's the best advice. If you're not ready to invest- Yeah ... in yourself like that, you've got ... The people who, the people who succeed and last, I'm gonna write about this too, are the people I've seen, especially as writers, they really invest in themselves and their writing.
Toby Myles: Yeah.
Jen Baxter: Period, end of sentence.
Toby Myles: Yep. Yeah. I, I think that's true. R- i- it's... And it can be different things at different times, I have found. Like, what do I need now, right? Yeah. And I don't always necessarily... It's not like, oh, I'm gonna go looking for this thing. But, you know, in the back of my mind I sort of plant that seed, oh, if I'm, when I'm ready for this, this is the person I'm gonna hire, or this is the group- Yeah
I'm gonna join. And it just kind of s- stays in the back of my mind until I'm ready for that thing. And yeah, the first few times you invest in something big, it's, like, scary. And like, I know for me, Shrimp Club was like, oof. Like- Mm-hmm I, like, thought I was gonna throw up, honestly. And I remember talking to my husband about it, and I was like, "I'm thinking about doing this thing."
And you know, I told him what the investment was, and he's like, "Yeah, I think you should do it." I'm like, "No." Like, y- s- one of us has to be a grown-up in this situation , and it's clearly not me. But he said, like, along the same lines. He's like, "If it, if you think that, you know, it's going to move you forward, um, and closer to what it is you want to do, then yeah, it's- Yeah
a good investment." So yeah. Yeah. So that's great advice. I totally...
Jen Baxter: Yeah. It, and it's just the truth in the world we're living in today.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, and I like what you said too about you can't just think you're just gonna write and, you know- Mm-hmm ... go off in your little cottage in the woods and just write books or write whatever, and you're gonna make a living that way.
There's the whole business side of it. You need to learn about it, and if you feel like you don't like that side of it, then it, you probably should not start out on your own because it's, the business side of it is so much, so much of it. Mm-hmm. Right? The marketing- Mm-hmm ... and the sales and the connections and all the things, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, so o- that's, I love that advice. What, where can people find you and follow you? Hmm.
Jen Baxter: Okay. So my website, jenbaxter.com. I sh- could actually give you a little lead magnet or something. But also, um, Substack. So J- it's Jen, you can search Jen Baxter on Substack. But I have a great Substack called The Skillful Scribbler, which is about, um...
It, there's some Substack education on there, and it's primarily for authors to really help them understand the things that we're talking about. Like, this is a business, and your email list is the greatest marketing asset that you have for your business. Mm-hmm. But also, if you just love writing newsletters or you think that that, you know, that could be a way, uh, like a creative outlet, there's a lot of great stuff about writing on there too, the craft of writing and pre-writing and all sorts of...
'Cause I love creativity too. Yeah. So there's a lot of mindset and creativity stuff on there as well. So either Substack or my website or LinkedIn.
Toby Myles: Yeah. Amazing.
Jen Baxter: Those are my places. I kind of gave up Instagram. Yeah. I'm on there, but I don't Yeah.
Toby Myles: Yeah. I'm on there when I can't sleep. I post occasionally, but when I can't sleep and I'm like, "Oh, just let me scroll my phone," it's usually where I go 'cause it's, it can be entertaining.
It's- But... Totally. Totally. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been amazing. To everybody listening- Mm-hmm ... I real appreciate, um, everybody here. Like, this has totally been self-indulgent for us to get together- It's been great. I know ... and just to have a conversation. I learned things I didn't know about you, which is just- Mm-hmm
an extra added bonus. So thank you so much. I appreciate you being here.
Jen Baxter: Well, this has been really fun, as I knew it would be, so we'll do it again. There'll be a part two.
Toby Myles: Yeah, there'll definitely be a part two. Thanks, Jen.
Jen Baxter: Okay. Thanks.